I read on a site dedicated to Portuguese grammar and linguistics a claim by a Portuguese man who had been travelling in Spain that younger Castilian speakers aren't pronouncing the 'll' in the same way that older speakers do. He claims it's being glossed over by a more vocalic sound.
I can't comment on this, but it'd be interesting to hear what others in the know when it comes to Castilian Spanish have to say about it.
http://ciberduvidas.sapo.pt/php/correio.php (for those of you who can read Portuguese)
mjd, in Castilian, historically "ll" has been /L/, the usage of which is called "lleismo", but in most Latin American Castilian dialects outside of Argentina and Quechua-speaking areas, /j/ is used for such, which is called "yeismo". The more vocalic sound that is being referred to here is probably the replacement of historical /L/ with /j/ amongst younger speakers for what is written "ll", in the context of European Castilian dialects.
In Brazilian Portuguese
LH is pronounced
1. as English LY in most cases: ILHA ['ilya] isle, FILHO ['filyu]
2. as English L:
a) with -INHO/INHA: FILHINHO [fil'i~y~U]
b) with open E [E]: MULHER [mu'le(h)], GUILHERME [gi'LEhmi]
LH=Italian GL(I) is oldfashioned pronunciation in Brazil, found mainly in the speech of old persons, while LH = y is regional pronunciation (VELHO [vEyU] is slangy pronunciation of [vElyU], and it means ''old pal'' in the accent of Brazil's capital - Brasília).
So, in Both Spanish and Portuguese LL/LH pronunciation is very variable, new pronunciations being preferred in Americas.
Dear MJD:
It is true that the palatalised "l" (ll) is quickly disappearing amongst the younger European Castilian Spanish generations. Traditionally it was a thing of the south (Andalucía, Extremadura, Murcia) but Madrid is definitely "yeísta" right now (pronouncing "ll" as "y") and it has reached most bigger cities.
The Catalan-speaking territotory is far less "yeísta" since Catalan pronounces "ll" quite clearly and it isn't considered "standard" in Catalan. This means Catalan speakers will tend to keep the difference in Castilian as well.
I would say palatalised "ll" is still a normal pronunciation in northern rural Castilian regions but that it will eventually disappear over there as well.
It will take much longer for that to happen in Catalan since it is considered a "vulgar" or "foreign" pronunciation although a lot of Catalan new speakers have also imported this Castilian pronunciation.
The palatalised "ll" was also common in French where it disappeared in the 18th and 19th century and it has also disappeared (in a more recent date) in many Occitan dialects.
"Yeísmo" is now accepted in Standard European Castilian and it can be heard in many television programmes, even broadcasters do it.
In Portugal we keep pronouncing palatalised LH.
(well, I shouldn't say WE, since I have a light speach defect and tend to vocalise my LH's; my girlfriend loves teasing me because of that)
Jordi:
How is the "ll" pronounced in Catalan when it at the end of a word? I've noticed quite a few Catalonian place names ending in "ll".
One minor note: in Argentinian Spanish, "ll" is pronounced as /Z/, rather than as /L/ or /j/.
As for /L/, one thing I just thought of is the Catalan-speaking Mallorcan philosopher and writer Ramon Llull. Does anyone else know of words in Catalan, Castilian, or Portuguese with *multiple* /L/s in them?
Double Ls in Portuguese were eliminated with one of the spelling reforms of the last century (I believe it was the Orthographic Reform of 1945). Some people will use them in their names, but they do not appear in the written language.
The Portuguese equivalent of the Spanish 'll' is 'lh', but the sound is not the same. Say the English word "million"....the "lli" in "million" sounds similar to the 'lh' in Portuguese.
Double "ll" at the end of Catalan words is also palatalised and it is one of the most dificult sounds for Castilian Spanish speakers or even English speakers who want to learn the language.
It is pronounced exactly the same as in the begining or end of a word.
Cavall (horse), or Sabadell (the name of a city) are both pronounced this way and it is a distinctive sign of the Catalan language since there is no vowel behind. Speakers from other languages tend to despalatalise and pronounce "l" and say "caval" or "Sabadel"
To say Ramon "Llull" you should palatalise exactly the same at the begining and end of the word. Medieval Castilian Spanish translated it to "Lulio" to make it easier for them to pronounce.
I guess people from MALLORCA pronounce it MAYORCA, and this gave prestige to MAYORCA pronunciation.
I've never heard someone saying: PALMA DE MALLORCA, always: PALMA DE MAYORCA :)
What do you consider "yeismo" is? To me, an Argentinian, it is the use of a palato-alveolar fricative sound in the following contexts, neutralising many words that may be kept distinct in Castillian Spanish:
llegan ["SeGan] (middle and lower classes in Argentina), ["ZeGan] (upper classes) and very occasionaly, or for emphasis, ["dZeGan] can be heard among affected upper class people when initial in an utterance.
The same applies to sequences of y+vowel:
Ayer [a"SEr(r)], [a"ZEr(r)].
However, I feel that people in Spain may use these sounds in words where we wouldn´t:
hielo is ["jelo] here, never ["Zelo] or ["dZelo]. Isn't it normal in Spain?
Wednesday, May 18, 2005, 08:27 GMT