Arguing with the teacher

Xatufan   Thursday, May 26, 2005, 20:46 GMT
"I was walking, angry because my parents hadn't bought / didn't buy me anything for my birthday".

Which tense is correct? I think "hadn't bought" is correct, but my teacher says it should be "didn't buy". Please tell me I'm right and he is wrong.
Lazar   Thursday, May 26, 2005, 20:48 GMT
I think either is correct. "Hadn't" and "didn't" are both in the past tense, so you could use either verb with "was".
Ed   Thursday, May 26, 2005, 20:50 GMT
Both sound OK to me.
Xatufan   Thursday, May 26, 2005, 20:54 GMT
My teacher says "hadn't bought" is wrong because the action of receiving no gifts was momentaneous and lacked of extension in time. That has nothing to do with it, I think.
Lazar   Thursday, May 26, 2005, 20:58 GMT
<<My teacher says "hadn't bought" is wrong because the action of receiving no gifts was momentaneous and lacked of extension in time.>>

But the sentence doesn't talk about receiving no gifts, it talks about *buying* no gifts. It's completely fine to use the perfect (or specifically, pluperfect) tense in this instance.
Hans-Ulrich   Thursday, May 26, 2005, 21:08 GMT
I have a question to all: can you use indistinctly "haven't + verb in participle" or "didn't + verb" by all verbs?

I mean for example this: "I haven't looked" or "I didn't look"????
Kirk   Thursday, May 26, 2005, 23:25 GMT
I agree with Lazar...either one sounds fine, Xatufan. Hans-Ulrich, it depends on the context and the dialect. Some dialects prefer the present perfect in one situation while others prefer the normal preterit. Sorry to be vague, but maybe if you think of a specific situation I can give you better advice on it.
Travis   Friday, May 27, 2005, 02:23 GMT
I myself agree with Lazar and Kirk; both are perfectly fine to me. One note is that while some dialects may prefer the simple past over the past perfect, or vice versa, but I haven't heard of one or the other being *required* in a case like this one.
Jim   Friday, May 27, 2005, 02:23 GMT
Xatufan,

You're right and your teacher is wrong. It's got nothing to do with instantaneous vs. taking time. I'd prefer "hadn't bought" (past event with (a) present effect(s)) but the other would be acceptable in informal speach/writing (depending on dialect).
Jim   Friday, May 27, 2005, 03:31 GMT
Actually the more important reason to use the past perfect here is because you're jumping two steps back in time. Your parents not having bought you something was past at the time of your walking & now your walking is past. Double past ==>> use past perfect. Find a new teacher.
Xatufan   Friday, May 27, 2005, 15:51 GMT
Of course!!! Thanks Jim, I knew I had to be right!
Mxsmanic   Friday, May 27, 2005, 18:19 GMT
The past perfect (hadn't bought) would be my suggestion. The buying was anterior to the walking, and the walking was already in the past, so the past perfect makes the sequence of events clear.

Many people would use the past simple in informal conversation, though, mainly because it's less trouble than a past perfect (and easier to pronounce).

Your teacher sounds like she learned her grammar out of a book and hasn't actually used English very much. Your grammar is correct when the people to whom you are speaking or writing understand exactly what you intend.
Rubina Shah   Monday, May 30, 2005, 00:56 GMT
Hi
Although I am non-native user of English, i have the following comments. Both are grammatically correct, no doubt. But both convey two different meanings.

'didnt' means here....i was walking angry because my parents didnt....habitual, recurring event of the past....happening now and then in the past.

but "hadnt"....means.....I was walking....because my parents had not....only on a particualr occasion...when parents had not bought etc something.....this use interprets the current even....and cant be interpreted as habitual, recurring event....

Have I explained my viewpoint successfully?
Bye
Kirk   Monday, May 30, 2005, 02:44 GMT
<<Your grammar is correct when the people to whom you are speaking or writing understand exactly what you intend.>>

That sounds kind of odd coming from you, Mxsmanic--have you changed your position of what you believe to be native-speaker "non-standard forms to be avoided?"
Jim   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 00:47 GMT
Rubina Shah,

That thought had passed my mind too. This would be the strict logical interpretation of the sentence with "... didn't ..." However, would this meaning be clear to the listener? Mxsmanic makes a good point when he writes "Your grammar is correct when the people ... understand ..." If that is what you mean, you'd be better off making it more clear. For example, "I was walking, angry because my parents would never buy me anything for my birthday".