Pronunciation of "syrup"

andre in usa   Saturday, May 28, 2005, 09:33 GMT
<<Yup. I'm sure. At least everyone I've ever heard here has [I] before [r], but I'm almost certain that's not just a Californian thing. It simply follows the tense-lax neutralizations common in many North American dialects, and in my dialect they're merged to [I] in this sound environment.>>

First of all, people with the mirror-nearer merger, part of tense-lax neutralization you described, merge the vowel so that it becomes tense, which would be [i]. I have this merger, and I think everyone NAE speaker does except for people in NYC and Boston.

Also, this merger is only found in vowels before intervocalic [r], and the wikipedia link you provided explains this. Postvocalic [r] words like beer and cheer are not part of any merger, so I'm confused why you would say them with [I].
andre in usa   Saturday, May 28, 2005, 09:35 GMT
"everyone NAE speaker" should be "every NAE speaker"
Lazar   Saturday, May 28, 2005, 19:38 GMT
<<First of all, people with the mirror-nearer merger, part of tense-lax neutralization you described, merge the vowel so that it becomes tense, which would be [i]. I have this merger, and I think everyone NAE speaker does except for people in NYC and Boston.>>

Yeah, in all the merged people that I have heard, at least, it tends to become [i] rather than [I].

And you're right about NYC and Boston. I'm from Mass. and I don't have the merger.

<<Postvocalic [r] words like beer and cheer are not part of any merger, so I'm confused why you would say them with [I].>>

Yeah, I definitely pronounce "cheer" and "beer" with a tense vowel.
Travis   Saturday, May 28, 2005, 20:54 GMT
I tend to merge it no matter whether the /r/ is word-medial or not, and then, I myself tend to use [I] rather than [i] with what were /i/ and /I/ historically. So hence, for me "beer" is /bIr/ --> [bI:r\], "cheer" is /tSIr/ --> [tSI:r\], "near" is /nIr/ --> [nI:r\], "nearer" is /"nIrr=/ --> ["nI:.r\@`], and "mirror" is /mIr/ --> [mI:r\] (that's right, in my dialect it's normally just one syllable). However, when I merge /e/, /E/, and /{/ in such environments, I always use [e] rather than [E], so hence "Mary", "merry", and "marry" are all /"meri/ --> ["me.r\i].
Jim   Monday, May 30, 2005, 03:38 GMT
It's /sIr@p/ for me (Aussie).
Kirk   Monday, May 30, 2005, 04:28 GMT
<<First of all, people with the mirror-nearer merger, part of tense-lax neutralization you described, merge the vowel so that it becomes tense, which would be [i]. I have this merger, and I think everyone NAE speaker does except for people in NYC and Boston.>>

Well, I definitely don't have a tense vowel there. It's [Ir] for me. That's all I ever hear here--apparently it's not just here in California, either--Travis is from Wisconsin and also has [Ir] for words like "beer" and "cheer."

<<Also, this merger is only found in vowels before intervocalic [r], and the wikipedia link you provided explains this. Postvocalic [r] words like beer and cheer are not part of any merger, so I'm confused why you would say them with [I].>>

Well, I'm not an expert on that merger--maybe the "mirror-nearer" merger link wasn't the best thing to explain what I was talking about...sorry. I don't know--I just checked oed.com and the British pronunciation of "beer" is [bI@]--"syrup" is listed as [sIr@p] (which is how I'd say it if I didn't happen to have [3`] there). Anyway, all I know is that I have [I] before all [r], unless it's analyzed differently on a morphological level. For me:

"spear it" [spIr It]
"spirit" [spIrIt]
"nearer" [nIr@`]
"mirror" [mIr@`]
"beer" [bIr]
"sear" [sIr]

"seer" (one who sees) /si.@r/ --> [si@`]
Travis   Monday, May 30, 2005, 04:40 GMT
For me, those which I haven't already said above are:

"spear it" : /spIr It/ --> [spI:r\ I?]
"spirit" : /"spIrIt/ --> ["spI.r\I?]
"nearer" : /"nIrr=/ --> ["nI.r\@`] (correction, the vowel in the first syllable shouldn't be long here)
"sear" : /sIr/ --> [sI:r\]

but

"seer" : /"sir=/ --> ["si.j@`]
taro   Monday, May 30, 2005, 08:06 GMT
so... deer and seer don't rhyme for you, do they, Travis and Kirk?
how about "engineer", it's /"endZI'ni@`/ for me, is it /Ir/ or /ir/ for you at the end?
Travis   Monday, May 30, 2005, 08:26 GMT
Nope, "deer" (/dIr/ --> [dI:r\]) and "seer" definitely do not rhyme for me. As for "engineer", for me such is /"EndZInIr/ --> ["E~:n.dZI~.nIr\].
Kirk   Monday, May 30, 2005, 09:03 GMT
taro: <<so... deer and seer don't rhyme for you, do they, Travis and Kirk?
how about "engineer", it's /"endZI'ni@`/ for me, is it /Ir/ or /ir/ for you at the end?>>

Travis: <<Nope, "deer" (/dIr/ --> [dI:r\]) and "seer" definitely do not rhyme for me. As for "engineer", for me such is /"EndZInIr/ --> ["E~:n.dZI~.nIr\].>>

Same for me, "deer" and "seer" don't rhyme at all in my speech. I have the exact same pronunciations for "deer," "seer," and "engineer" as Travis. Where are you from, taro?
Lazar   Monday, May 30, 2005, 14:08 GMT
For me:

"spear it" [spir It]
"spirit" [spIrIt]
"nearer" [nir@`]
"mirror" [mIr@`]
"beer" [bir]
"sear" [sir]
"seer" [si@`]
taro   Monday, May 30, 2005, 16:45 GMT
I'm from Arizona. deer and seer are different in my accent too, but it's more like seer being pronounced like /si:j@`/ and deer is something in between /di@`/ and /dI@`/. I think the first sound of my "deer" is very close to the 3rd vowel in the word "appreciate". (the vowel in "ci" part)
It's not completely lax as the vowel in "hit" is, nor is it completely tense as "heat" is.

I wonder how people from other states pronounce those words. How about the word "really"? I've heard it pronounce in three ways; ['r\i:li], /'r\Ili/ and /'r\I@li/.
taro   Monday, May 30, 2005, 16:47 GMT
Lazar, you said you pronounce sear and seer as /sir/ and /si@`/ respectively. How do you pronounce /ir/ and /i@`/ differently?
Lazar   Monday, May 30, 2005, 16:52 GMT
<<How do you pronounce /ir/ and /i@`/ differently?>>

[ir] is one syllable, whereas [i@`] is two syllables (the second syllable being a rhotacized schwa).
Lazar   Monday, May 30, 2005, 16:54 GMT
<<I wonder how people from other states pronounce those words. How about the word "really"?>>

I pronounce "really" [rili]. I'm from Massachusetts.