Scots - Dialect or Language

Brennus   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 07:06 GMT
Kirk, Travis, Jim,

Gentlemen, what's the problem? There are only three main types of English. Dictionary.Com defines them thusly:

1) QUEEN'S ENGLISH
n.
English speech or usage that is considered standard or accepted; Received Standard English.

2)COCKNEY
The dialect or accent of the natives of the East End of London.

3) SCOTS
n.
The dialect of English used in the Lowlands of Scotland.

Is that hard to grasp?

I think you all know what the Lord's prayer looks like in a standard English version of it. However, Cockney and Scots are markedly different as seen in some versions of the Lord's Prayer below.

Lord's Prayer - Scots
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4021/lowland.html
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-scots-doric.html

Lords Prayer - Cockney http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/110/33.0.html

In all seriousness, I don't think that any of you can show me a Canadian English version of The Lord's Prayer, or a "Texan", "Californian", or "Boston" English version of it.

Please note that Dictionary.Com still defines Scots as a dialect and does not go as far as to say that it is a different language nor does the 1988 PBS series "The Story of English" which said that Scots MIGHT have become as different from Standard English as Swedish from Danish had the political separation between the two countries existed long enough. .
Travis   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 07:26 GMT
One problem though is that most of the forms spoken in the US exist in parallel with formal American English, in that most of the speakers of them can also speak such, if they have to, and also really have no orthographies for them in the first place. This is especially important because normally people do not write in the various dialects most speak, but rather in a formal literary language, even though aspects of informal language will often show through at times. But I'll try to cook up a version of the Lord's Prayer in the dialect spoken here nonetheless, my not being a Christian aside.

For reference, the version from the Book of Common Prayer:

Our Father, who art in Heaven,
hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done,
on Earth, as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
[For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.]

Then in my makeshift orthography, for the dialect here:

Aar Faadhyr, uuz yn hevyn,
Jyr Kingdamyl kam, jyr willyl bi so,
aan Yrth, aez its yn hevyn.
Giv as aar deli bred tade,
yn foorgiv aar trespaesiz,
aez wi foorgiv dhoz u trespaes agens as.
Aend doont lied as tu tempteesjin,
bat insted seev as fram ievyl.
[Foor joorz iz dha kingdam, yn dha pauyr, yn dha glori,
foor evyr yn evyr.]

(Note that in the above, some words do alternate between reduced and stressed versions, such as "yn" and "aend" (note that "yn" is also a reduced version of "in" as well), and various words have been cliticized and incorporated into other words. In addition, present subjunctives have been replaced, old-style informal 2nd person pronouns have been replaced, a few dative constructions have been removed, and some word choices have been changed as well. Some things have not been marked, such as the assimilation of /D/ to preceding phonemes, and the various reflexes of the phoneme /t/.)
Travis   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 07:28 GMT
Slight correction: <dhoz> should be <dhooz> above.
Kazoo   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 07:47 GMT
Why bother arguing with him? He know's that he's wrong, he's just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Kazoo   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 07:51 GMT
Having said that:

The Lord's Prayer in Geordie:

Wor Fatha , whee art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Nyame . Thy kingdom come. Thy will be dyun , On earth as it is in heaven. Gissies this dyah wor daily bread. An forgive weh wor trespasses, As wi forgive those whee trespass against weh . An lead weh not into temptation, But deliver weh frem evil. Fre thine is the kingdom, an the power, an the glory, fre ever an ever. Amen.
Travis   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 07:55 GMT
My version is clearly much closer to the Book of Common Prayer version than the Geordie version is, orthography aside, it seems.
Damian   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 08:00 GMT
Good morning.....June is here, Summer is here...YAAAYYY! Guess what.....here in Edinburgh the sky is.....grey and sullen and overcast. Yuk.

For some obscure reason I was not able to post the link to a short article I came across in one of this morning's UK newspapers through which I have to laboriously trawl...a labour of love, actually (I loved that film btw). Anyway, I shall type out the article as it's brief. It's not actually the Scots dialect at issue as per the thread title...it's just that in the English uni city of Cambridge the American accent is not flavour of the month:

Verbatim:

US DRAWL FAILS TO FIND FAVOUR

"Talking payment machines at a car park in Cambridge are upsetting locals and visitors by giving instructions in an American accent.

Councillors have demanded that software in the machines at the Lion Yard multi-storey car park in the city centre be replaced so that instead of a synthesised American drawl, visitors will be welcomed by a synthesised English one."

London Daily Telegraph, Wednesday 01/06/05 p8 col 8

It seems to imply that one drawl will be replaced by another... I've never heard of any English English accent being described as a drawl....maybe someone out there knows better...
Jim   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 08:01 GMT
And now let me transcribe the same in Travis' makeshift orthography but in my Australian Queen's Cockney ...

Au Faadha hu aat in Hevyn,
H ...

Strike me pink I can't go any further because Travis has a different set of phonemes whereas I would want to distinguish /@/ and /6/ ... it must be because of the Cockney in me.

Brennus,

What's the problem? No big problem: just the fact that you're wrong.

Is it hard to grasp? We understand what you're saying in this sense we grasp it well enough. We just can't see how your idea applies to the real world because it doesn't fit with what we observe.

Dictionary.com is not the last word on anything but for the sake of it. Let's check this out.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=geordie

2 entries found for geordie.
Geor·die2 ...

A formerly used British gold coin ...

...

Geor·die1 ...

1. A native or inhabitant of Newcastle upon Tyne, England, or its environs.
2. The dialect of English spoken by Geordies.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=scouse

2 entries found for scouse.
scouse ...

1. A lobscouse.

2. a. often Scous·er (skousr) A native or resident of Liverpool, England.
b. often Scouse The dialect of English spoken in Liverpool.
Travis   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 08:05 GMT
Ack, I forgot to put in the second line, in my version, which should be:

"jyr nemyl bi haalood,"

I had to reconfigure it from the standard version, which'd be word-for-word "haalood bi jyr neem", because in my dialect, well, such present subjunctive usages are generally avoided in speech.
Deborah   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 08:08 GMT
DAMIAN, I'm surprised that anyone would choose an American drawl for a synthesized voice. Most synthesized voices I've heard have been at least average speed. Or is this, like "twang," another case of simply using a word that describes a particular American accent and ignorantly applying it to all American accents?
Kazoo   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 08:09 GMT
Our Father, who art in Heaven,
hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done,
on Earth, as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
[For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.]
Amen

Ar Fother hu art in Heven,
halloed be thy name.
Thy Kingdum cum, Thy Will by dun,
on Erth, az it iz in Heven.
Giv us this day ar daely bred,
an furgiv us ar trespassez,
az we furgiv those hu trespas agenst us.
An leed us not inta temtashun,
but daliver us frum evul.
[Fer thine iz tha kingdum, an tha power, an tha glory,
fer ever an ever.]
Aemen

There's a Canadian English one for you.
Travis   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 08:12 GMT
Kazoo, I see you just tried to show, to some extent or another, the pronunciations used, rather than actually bothering to change the grammar used to that which'd be used today in speech, if one weren't trying to sound archaic. I assume you yourself wouldn't say "thine" in most contexts, of course.
Kazoo   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 08:13 GMT
Thy Will by dun = Thy Will be dun
Kazoo   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 08:16 GMT
Not usually, no.

Ar Fother huz in Heven,
Hu'z Name iz holi.
Yer Kingdum cum, Yer Will be dun,
on Erth, az it iz in Heven.
Giv us this day ar daely bred,
an furgiv us ar trespassez,
az we furgiv those hu trespas agenst us.
An leed us not inta temtashun,
but daliver us frum evul.
[Fer yerz iz tha kingdum, an tha power, an tha glory,
fer ever an ever.]
Aemen
Kazoo   Wednesday, June 01, 2005, 08:18 GMT
An leed us not inta temtashun = An doent leed us inta temtashun