<guérir> après <guerre>, <guêpe> et <bl

guest   Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:23 pm GMT
<<Convince Me.>>

And please don't use the same old "it's the same word/form/meaning in all the Roman languages (except maybe Romanian)" routine again. That doesn't prove anything except that Romance languages have little individuality and like to copy-cat one another and borrow each others' words and use them in the same way. That's not convincing proof for people on our level.
guest   Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:58 pm GMT
<<And please don't use the same old "it's the same word/form/meaning in all the Roman languages (except maybe Romanian)" routine again. That doesn't prove anything except that Romance languages have little individuality and like to copy-cat one another and borrow each others' words and use them in the same way. That's not convincing proof for people on our level. >>

Ok, that was a little rude. I apologize. But doing this is akin to saying that 'nation' is a questionable Latinate word because:

British English - nation
American English - nation
Australian English - nation
New Zealand English - nation
Middle English - nacioun, nation
Frisian - naasje
Plautdietsch - natsjoon
High German - Nation
Dutch - natie
Scots - nation
Danish - nation
Norwegian - nasjon
Swedish - nation

Icelandic - þjóð (from another ancient Indo-European root)

maybe not a perfect one to one analogy, but you get the point? The linguistic 'bloc' of Romance in regards to homogenity and unity does not impress me much. It's all the same frickin' language anyway. It's no surprise that there are so many similarities. [Duh.] Go impress someone over the similiarities between all the Slavic languages, or the Scandinavian languages. Big Deal.
Guest   Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:04 pm GMT
Indeed.
Russian: нации
Serbian: нација
Croatian: nacija
Slovenian: nacija
z   Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:04 am GMT
Here some intersting facts from wikipedia regarding "W"

The earliest form of the letter W was a doubled V used in the 7th century by the earliest writers of Old English; it is from this <uu> digraph that the modern name "double U" comes. This digraph was not extensively used, as its sound was usually represented instead by the runic wynn (Ƿ), but W gained popularity after the Norman Conquest, and by 1300 it had taken wynn's place in common use. Other forms of the letter were a pair of Vs whose branches cross in the middle. An obsolete, cursive form found in the nineteenth century in both English and German was in the form of an "n" whose rightmost branch curved around as in a cursive "v" (compare the shape of ƕ).

The sounds /w/ (spelled with U/V) and /b/ of Classical Latin developed into a bilabial fricative /β/ between vowels, in Early Medieval Latin. Therefore, V no longer represented adequately the labial-velar approximant sound /w/ of Old High German. In German, this phoneme /w/ later became /v/; this is why German W represents that sound. In Dutch, it became a labiodental approximant /ʋ/ (with the exception of words with EEUW, which have /eːw/), or other diphthongs containing -uw.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W
greg   Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:42 pm GMT
'guest' : « no Latin text ever showed something like "w" or the Gothic "th" ».

Ce sont les langues romanes dont il est question, pas le latin.

D’autre part on trouve nombre d’écrits latins où le <w> est utilisé.

Exemple → le « Capitulaire monastique » rédigé pour le synode d’Aix-la-Chapelle en 817 par Benoît d’Aniane, un aristocrate latinographe d’ascendance wisigothe, originaire du marquisat de Gothie (ancien duché de Septimanie, ancienne Narbonnaise première) :
« [...] quibus autem necesse est itineris causa, alias duas manicas, quas vulgo wantos appellamus, in æstate, muffulas in hyeme vervecinas [...] ».

L’étymon <wantus>/<uuantus>/<uantus>/<vuantus>/<vantus>/<guantus>/<gantus> utilisé en scriptomédiolatin signifie {gant = Handschuh} ; il est en concurrence avec <chiroteca>, <manica> & <plumbatus>.

On pourra revenir sur l’origine de <wantus>, à l’instar de <guérir>, <guerre>, <guêpe> & <blanc>.





'guest' : « are you saying what you're saying in order to make conversation and healthy debate [...] or do you really believe what you are saying? ».

Sur quel point précis porte ta question ?





'guest' : « Probing the possibilites, what indications or suggestions do you provide to support the contrary to w- being germanic? Convince Me. »

Eh bien c’est assez simple. L’hypothèse officielle selon laquelle le <w> initial est d’origine exclusivement germanique est basée sur le fait que les étymons en question ont été obligatoirement empruntés par les romanophones médiévaux à des langues germaniques anciennes. Plus précisément, l’étymologie officielle française postule que ces étymons ont été importés de l’ancien bas-francique (ABF).

Ainsi, la doxa profrancique pose les schémas suivants :

1] germanique [sic] *<blank> → ororoman (OR) /blank/ → ancien français (AF) <blanc> <blanch> <blank> <blaunch> <blaunk> (etc)

2] ABF *<warjan> → OR /(g)warir/ → AF <garer> <garier> <garir> <gaurir> <guarer> <guarir> <guaurir> <guerir> <gwarir> <warir> (etc)

3] latin <vespa> + ABF *<wespa> → OR /?/ → AF <guespe> <vespe> <waspe> <wepe> <wespe> (etc)

4] ABF *<werra> → OR /(g)wera/ → AF <gair> <gierre> <guere> <guerre> <gwere> <gwerre> <waire> <were> <werre>.

Or tous les étymons germaniques cités par l’étymologie officielle sont d’une part non-attestés et appartiennent d’autre part à l’ancien bas-francique (excepté *<blank> qui est réputé "germanique" sans plus de précision).

La non-attestation des étymons paléogermaniques suffit à ranger l’étymologie officielle dans la même classe que la piste cortézienne : la classe des hypothèses, des conjectures. Donc un point partout, la balle au centre.

Ensuite l’intuition cortézienne semble jouir de plusieurs avantages sur la doxa profrancique traditionnelle :

1] la supputation d’un emprunt aux langues paléogermaniques implique, par définition, un élément de complexité externe (contact interlangues roman/germanique), qui demande à être prouvé avec autre chose que des étymons non-attestés, là où Cortez se limite à une simple évolution endogène qui exclut le latin et le germanique : indo-européen → italique → roman → langues romanes modernes ;

2] l’école profrancique pêche également par défaut de cohérence : comment expliquer qu’une ribambelle d’étymons prétendûment empruntés à l’ancien bas-francique par les romanophones médiévaux de la Gaule septentrionale se soient retrouvés pratiquement inaltérés dans des régions aussi éloignées que la Toscane, la Catalogne, la Galicie, la Calabre, la Bétique, la Sardaigne et la Sicile ?

3] l’étymologie romanisante actuelle est la fidèle héritière des pères fondateurs, des étymologistes germanophones du XIX siècle, pour qui l’absence de vocable latin répertorié pour rechercher la paternité d’un étymon roman valait automatiquement présomption d’origine germanique ; Cortez conteste non seulement la filiation latine, mais aussi l’origine germanique conçue pour suppléer à toute vacance latine, et déplore l’inertie qui nous cantonne encore aux "découvertes" du XIXe siècle.

Mais j’ai bien peur de ne pouvoir te convaincre car il faut reconnaître que tout ce dont disposent les tenants de l’une et l’autre thèse ne sont malheureusement que de simple suppositions — jusqu’ici en tout cas.




'guest' : « And please don't use the same old "it's the same word/form/meaning in all the Roman languages (except maybe Romanian)" routine again. That doesn't prove anything except that Romance languages have little individuality and like to copy-cat one another and borrow each others' words and use them in the same way. That's not convincing proof for people on our level. »

L’hypothèse d’un copier-coller lexical de proche en proche doit être comparée à celle d’une transmission en ligne directe (paléoroman → langues romanes modernes).





'guest' : «Ok, that was a little rude. I apologize. But doing this is akin to saying that 'nation' is a questionable Latinate word because:

British English - nation
American English - nation
Australian English - nation
New Zealand English - nation
Middle English - nacioun, nation
Frisian - naasje
Plautdietsch - natsjoon
High German - Nation
Dutch - natie
Scots - nation
Danish - nation
Norwegian - nasjon
Swedish - nation

Icelandic - þjóð (from another ancient Indo-European root)

maybe not a perfect one to one analogy, but you get the point? The linguistic 'bloc' of Romance in regards to homogenity and unity does not impress me much. It's all the same frickin' language anyway. It's no surprise that there are so many similarities. [Duh.] Go impress someone over the similiarities between all the Slavic languages, or the Scandinavian languages. Big Deal. »

Dans le que tu abordes, la migration de <nation> est attestée et amplement documentée. Par exemple Etymonline signale, ainsi que tu l'indiquais, que An <nation> est issu de AF <nacion> et en effet en moyen-anglais on trouve : « As for þe nacioun of bestis, þe erþe broȝte out fleeȝis » & « Thus did this Prynce Dermot hym̄-Selfe and al othyr Prynces of his Nacion̄ in lond for euer encombre by oppressyon̄ ».

Dans les exemples que je citais, on ne trouve aucun écrit attestant de la réalité de l’emprunt germanique → roman.
Z   Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:48 pm GMT
Again please see
http://books.google.de/books?id=cbc3QPFHzfMC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=kanonbildung+wartburg&source=web&ots=Nb9sB1xjUN&sig=oRtkFZK7aKxIQYnmHQ_baHJ4ltI&hl=de#PPA263,M1

There it is described how an official "canonized" ethymologic is produced: it is done by an educated and independent guess of a few specialists who have a huge experience and knowledge of Romanistics. Diez, von Wartburg, Meyer-Luebke and Coromines are the happy few who did know almost everything that can be known and prooved in this field. They did their utmost to think of all possibilities to trace the origins of Romance words back to their roots. For amateurs like us and Mister Cortez it might be sometimes unclear how the different etymologies are substantiated. I guess that not all known etymologies for all Romance words are "canonized", and even that not all "canonized" etymologies are true, but I think that it is difficult to believe that the complete oevre of these monumental scientists can be completely false and replaced by the little book of Yves Cortez. But still it is thanks to YC that new discussions arize. Regrettably the hypothesis of a undocumented but still omnipresent proto-Italian language as a ancestor of Romance is as implausible as travail coming from tripalium...
Guest   Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:36 am GMT
in
http://books.google.de/books?id=cbc3QPFHzfMC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=kanonbildung+wartburg&source=web&ots=Nb9sB1xjUN&sig=oRtkFZK7aKxIQYnmHQ_baHJ4ltI&hl=de#PPA263,M1

the etymlogy of French "aller" (coming from Latin "ambulare"?) is discussed as an example of difficult canonical etymology.

Another possibility is that French "aller" comes from Old Germanic "(sich) eilen" which would fit not only to the sound and sense of "aller" but also to constructions like "s´en aller" and "aller a la cave" = "in den Keller eilen"

Another source indicates the identity between "(sich) eilen" and "gehen/gahen":


Quote:
Originally Posted by cyanista
It is from Carmina Burana. Your version is slightly different, though.

According to Project Gutenberg it reads as follows:

«ich sih die heide in gruoner varwe stan!
dar suln wir alle gahen,
die sumerzit enphahen!
des tanzes ich beginnen sol, wil ez iv niht versmahen!»



Eine sehr wörtliche Übersetzung des Textes:

"Ich sehe die Heide in grüner Farbe stehen!
Da (=dahin) sollen wir alle eilen,
die Sommerzeit empfangen!
Des Tanzes (=Mit dem Tanzen) soll/werde ich beginnen,
will es euch nicht verschmähen!"


"gahen" heißt "(sich) eilen", es hat etymologisch nichts mit "gehen" zu tun sondern gehört zu "jäh".
Das mittelhochdeutsche Wort für "gehen" lautet meist "gên".


http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=207630
guest   Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:53 pm GMT
I doubt very seriously that French 'aller' finds its origin in German 'eilen'.
German 'eilen' comes from OHG 'iilen' (cf. OE ile - sole of the foot), making the *disconnection* between the words much clearer.

Though not from Latin 'ambulare' either, as Old French 'embler' < 'ambulare' attests, and also because 'alare' and 'ambulare' were used comtemporarily...

French 'aller' most likely comes from 'alare' < *allatare < Latin 'allatus' ppt. of 'afferre' - "bring"/"carry" , with a change in meaning. But it's still open.