Pro-drop Languages

Guest   Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:09 pm GMT
SerboCroatian is a prodrop language, but sometimes pronoun is used without being emphatic...

Odlazim! (I'm leaving)
-Ali ja te volim! (But I love you)


Ali, volim te
wouldn't make any sense.

In colloquial Croatian, the conditional form is reduced to a clitic BI, so the pronoun is normally expressed:


formal usage: bih, bi, bi, bismo, biste, bi
informal: ja bi, ti bi, on bi, mi bi, vi bi, oni bi


Isao bih (formal) ---> Ja bi isao (coloquial)
Isli biste (formal)----> Vi bi isli (coloquial)
K. T.   Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:49 pm GMT
Thank-you. Once again, very interesting. SC or SCB-what a beautiful language! I need to find more advanced materials to study this.
Guest   Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:13 pm GMT
<<Ali, volim te
wouldn't make any sense<<
Actually it's normal to say "ali, volim te". You can google it if you like.
Guest   Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:18 pm GMT
Slovenian is also very much pro drop.

"He is beautiful" = "(on) je lep"
"She is beautiful" = "(ona) je lepa"
"It is beautiful" = "(to) je lepo"
greg   Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:48 am GMT
K.T. : « I didn't know/remember that the vowels were reversed in old French for "es regnet/It rains." »

En fait la variation graphique est importante en ancien français (ou ancien Oïl), tant en diatopie (régiolectes) qu'en diachronie (chronolectes). À l'infinitif moderne <pleuvoir> correspondent les anciennes formes suivantes : <plouvoir>, <ploveir>, <plover>, <plovoir>, <pluveir>, <pluver> (etc).

C'est pareil pour la 3e personne de l'indicatif présent : AF <pleut>, <ploet>, <pluet> (etc).
Guest   Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:53 pm GMT
Actually it's normal to say "ali, volim te".

Meni bas i ne zvuci najprirodnije.
Guest   Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:11 am GMT
greg:
<<<
K.T. : « Spanish is a pronoun-dropping language. French is not. »

C'est vrai. Mais l'ancien français (AF) se passe volontiers du pronom personnel sujet, à l'instar du castillan, de l'italien et de l'occitan. Une exception toutefois : à la 3e personne du singulier, quand le pronom AF <il> est un pronom **impersonnel**, il est souvent présent (non élidé).

Comparer pour {es regnet} :
ancien français → <il pluet> & <Ø pluet>
français → <il pleut> mais *<Ø pleut>
castillan → <llueve> mais *<él llueve> & *<ello llueve>
italien → <piove> mais *<esso piove> & *<lui piove>
occitan → <plòu> mais *<el plòu>.
>>>

Is French in general a pronoun-dropping language or not? And what about Castillian, Italian and Occitan?
greg   Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:40 am GMT
Guest : « Is French in general a pronoun-dropping language or not? ».


En général, un verbe conjugué dont le sujet est un pronom personnel ne permet pas l'élision de ce-dernier (à la différence de l'ancien français).


En français moderne, le pronom impersonnel <il> employé avec le verbe <falloir> peut être élidé à certains temps : <faut voir>, <faudra payer>, <faudrait y penser>, mais pas à d'autres : *<Ø aurait fallu partir>, *<Ø a fallu se taire>, *<elle n'est pas d'avis que Ø faille recommencer>.


D'autre part, et au contraire de l'ancien français, le pronom impersonnel <il> employé avec des verbes de météo ne s'élide pas en français moderne :
<il pleuvait> → *<Ø pleuvait>
<il neigera> → *<Ø neigera>
<il vente> → *<Ø vente>
<il aura grêlé> → *<Ø aura grêlé>
<il a gelé> → *<Ø a gelé>.


Ensuite, même si l'élision du pronom personnel sujet n'est pas possible, on constate qu'il est souvent réduit, voire amalgamé, avec certains verbes. Exemple du verbe <être> :

<je suis> → /Z@sHi/ = /ʒəsɥi/
<j'suis> (familier) → /ZsHi/ = /ʒsɥi/
<chuis> (familier) → /SHi/ = /ʃɥi/

<tu es> → 1] /tye/ — 2] /tHe/ = /tɥe/
<t'es> (familier, très courant) → /te/

<il est> → 1] /ile/ — 2] /le/

<nous sommes> → /nusOm/ = /nusɔm/

<vous êtes> → 1] /vuzEt/ = /vuzɛt/ — 2] /zEt/ = /zɛt/
<z'êtes> (familier, rare) → /zEt/ = /zɛt/

<ils sont> → 1] /ilsÕ/ = /ilsɔ̃/ — 2] /isÕ/ = /isɔ̃/
<y sont> (familier et considéré comme fautif) → /isÕ/ = /isɔ̃/.
Guest   Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:13 pm GMT
French makes (like English and German) generally use of pronouns. As greg shows, there are a few exceptions and the situation is not static but evolves in both directions. The same is true for English and German. If any classification makes any sense, then French is (like English and German) NOT a pronoun-dropping language.

Spanish, Italian etc. are pro-drop languages - perhaps they never made use of pronouns in their history, since Germanic influence was present but to a less extent.
Guest   Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:01 pm GMT
<Meni bas i ne zvuci najprirodnije.<

Tebi ne zvuči prirodno jer i ne živiš u Hrvatskoj.
BB   Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:29 pm GMT
Indonesian is generally a pro-drop language, even though the verbs are not conjugated according to person nor number.
This may be hard to imagine, but you usually know who the subject is following the context.
BB   Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:33 pm GMT
<< I find it interesting that Japanese is pro-drop both for subjects and objects, and yet its verbs don't inflect for either of them.

- Kef >>

<< Kef,

Welcome back to Antimoon. You're right about Japanese. I thought about mentioning it, but I decided to start the topic with romance languages. I've known about this aspect of languages for years, but I didn't know that "pro drop" was the term for these kinds of languages. >>


Japanese isn't the only one.
Indonesian also does this.
Guest   Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:51 pm GMT
<< Kef,

Welcome back to Antimoon. You're right about Japanese. I thought about mentioning it, but I decided to start the topic with romance languages. I've known about this aspect of languages for years, but I didn't know that "pro drop" was the term for these kinds of languages. >>

Does the term "pro drop" mean that for all languages there were initially pronouns that were dropped and lost sometime during language (d)evolution? Why should all languages have had pronouns, perhaps some of them never had or used them?
furrykef   Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:50 pm GMT
<< Kef,

Welcome back to Antimoon. >>

Nah, I just drop by here every now and then. Don't expect to see me regularly or anything.

<< Does the term "pro drop" mean that for all languages there were initially pronouns that were dropped and lost sometime during language (d)evolution? Why should all languages have had pronouns, perhaps some of them never had or used them? >>

Well, the choice between "pro-drop" and "pro-add", or whatever you would call it, is pretty arbitrary. After all, we really have little idea about the history of pronouns in early languages. Also, "pro-drop" is an English term, so it's not surprising that the term would reflect the perspective of English speakers, who are used to pronouns being required.

- Kef
Interbrew   Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:15 am GMT
K.T.
"Spanish is a pronoun-dropping language. French is not. That's interesting to me. I suppose this is because in the spoken language it would be difficult to identify the subject without a pronoun-just like in English.

Je parle
I speak
Tu parles
You speak "

Travis:
"Of course, English is still on the progressive end of such, as present-day English uses many compound prepositions which were not inherited from Common Germanic very heavily, but the use of compound prepositions is a feature that can still definitely be called "Germanic" despite being generally progressive rather than conservative. "


If the use of compound prepositions is a feature that can still definitely be called "Germanic", than French has at least one "Germanic" feature.