Personalized infinitives in Spanish

Milton   Wed May 28, 2008 8:23 pm GMT
Hi all!
I would like to know which dialects of the Spanish language use the personalized infinitive:

''Antes de yo salir de mi país'' (Spanish)

''Antes de eu sair de meu país'' (Northeastern Brazilian Portuguese)
''Antes de mim sair do meu país'' (Southern Brazilian Portuguese)

Portuguese language used to have the inflected infinitive, but in Brazil
the number of forms is reduced, so we should better call it a personalized infinitive, which is very close to the English subject+ing construction (my/me going, their/they having said):

antes de eu ir = before I go
antes de você ir = before you go
antes dele ir = before he goes

antes da gente ir = before we go
antes de vocês irem = before you all go
antes deles irem = before they go

It can also be translated with: for someone to:

É melhor ele vir pra cá do que eu ir pra lá.
It's better for him to come her than for me to go there. ($)

What are the corresponding strategies in Spanish,
can the personalized infinitive be used, if yes, when?

In the ($) example can you do well without using the subjunctive (w/que).
Thanks
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 8:36 pm GMT
''Antes de yo salir de mi país'' (Spanish)

I've heard this construction in Castilian Spanish before. I'm not sure if it is standard. Also I don't know if in some dialects it's more prevalent than in others .I personally don't use it at any circumstance. I would say instead: "Antes de que yo saliera de mi país"

It's better for him to come her than for me to go there. ($)

I would translate it as: Es mejor para él venir aquí que para mí ir allí. Once again you could say: Es mejor para él venir aquí que ir yo allí.
Note that when using the structure you mention, in Spanish the subject usually comes after the infinitive. But once again I don't know if it's standard. I guess that it may be just a colloquialism. Personally I tend to avoid it, because it sounds vulgar to me.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 9:09 pm GMT
<<''Antes de yo salir de mi país'' >>
If you use 'yo' you should put it normally after the infinitive: 'Antes de salir yo/tu de mi país'. But it's more common to say : antes de que (tu) salgas de mi pais .
<<Es mejor para él venir aquí que para mí ir allí>>
Yes, this structure can be used and match the english one. the second one is used if you want to put emphasis in 'yo' as commented before. But it's more normal use the expression 'Es mejor que .. ' that match the english expression 'it's better that ...'
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 9:48 pm GMT
I would just say: "Antes de salir de mi pais" it sounds better and since you're saying "my country" is intuitive that you're referring to yourself.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 9:52 pm GMT
"It's better for him to come her than for me to go there."

The natural way to say that expresion would be:

"Es mejor que el venga a que ella vaya"
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 9:55 pm GMT
oops sorry, it's me again, I got confused because you wrote "her" instead of "here" so the translation would be:

"Es mejor que el venga a que yo vaya"

see, I just changed "ella" (she) for "yo" (me)
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 10:48 pm GMT
It is certainly used in Peninsular Spanish: "Eso ocurrió antes de yo irme", but it's a rather colloquial register. It is even more used with "después de que" in the past, because the supposed correct form "después de que tú te fuiste" sounds ugly to any Spaniard nowdays. So the infinitive or the subjunctive are used instead:

Después de tú irte.
Después de que tú te fueras.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 10:54 pm GMT
"I've heard this construction in Castilian Spanish before."

Also in Andalusian Spanish.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 10:59 pm GMT
"I would just say: "Antes de salir de mi pais" it sounds better and since you're saying "my country" is intuitive that you're referring to yourself."

Yes, it's pretty obvious, because how many people could leave my country apart from me? It couldn't be so much...
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 11:09 pm GMT
Yes, it's pretty obvious, because how many people could leave my country apart from me? It couldn't be so much...

Romanian migrants for example.

Antes de salir de mi pais habia mucha criminalidad provocada por gitanos rumanos.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 11:13 pm GMT
"Yes, it's pretty obvious, because how many people could leave my country apart from me? It couldn't be so much..."

>>Please don't try stupid sarcasm with me, if I was refering to another person I wouldn't say "my country" I would just say "the country" that's why saying "my country" will almost always be refering to myself.

"because the supposed correct form "después de que tú te fuiste" sounds ugly to any Spaniard nowdays"

>>That's cuz Spaniards don't usually use the past verbs, instead of saying "I went" they usually say "I have gone" or instead of saying "I ate" they say "I have eaten", etc. which tecnically is wrong, that's why it would sound bad to most spaniards but it is perfectly fine (if not the ebst option)
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 11:13 pm GMT
"Es mejor que el venga a que yo vaya"

"mejor a" doesn't sound natural to me at all, would you say Juan es mejor a Pedro?, it's weird. I would say:

Es mejor que él venga que (no) que yo vaya.
Es mejor que él venga que (no) tener que ir yo.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 11:19 pm GMT
they usually say "I have gone" or instead of saying "I ate" they say "I have eaten

The simple past tense is indeed used in Spanish but it depends on the frame of time. For example if I ate an omelet yesterday in Spanish it's : "Ayer comí una tortilla". But if I ate an omelet for dinner tonight then you say: "He comido una tortilla para cenar esta noche". Do you get it? This may be different in American Spanish. I'm talking about Castilian Spanish.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 11:21 pm GMT
Why would you say "para cenar" when "cenar" is a verb? Spanish is strange compared to English.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 11:25 pm GMT
I don't find it strange, maybe it's English which is strange.