The German Pretirite - dying out in speech?

Interl   Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:01 pm GMT
I read that the preterite is apparently dying out in normal speech but is mainly used as a literary tense similar to the situation with French. Is this correct, and do you think this could be because of influence from Frnech or it the other way round, that German influenced French to drop the preterite tense?
Guest   Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:13 pm GMT
The preterite in German is indeed in decline in normal speech, but used as in French (in press/written).

I do not know if there is a relation between the French and German declines. It may be due to Sprachbunding, mere happenstance, or both.
Guest   Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:33 pm GMT
I don't like it when people use wierd terminoly, can you guys put any examples to know what you're talking about?
guest   Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:50 pm GMT
you can Wikipedia "Sprachbund"

it's very informative
Guest   Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:25 pm GMT
in Northern Germany, preterite is still used
in Southern Germany it is never used (except for haben and sein).

Classical Standard German still makes the distinction:

Es hat geregnet. (It has rained. The streets are still wet)
Es regnete. (It rained. The streets are not wet anymore).

So, in Standard German written style, the distinction is still valid (like in Standard written Italian).
Guest   Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:16 pm GMT
<<in Northern Germany, preterite is still used
in Southern Germany it is never used (except for haben and sein).
>>

Also, meanings can be different as well between north and south, but Interl was referring to spoken German, not written

Is the preterit still common in spoken German in the North? I have a hunch that it might
Mika   Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:41 pm GMT
I live in Northern Germany.
Even here the use of Preterite is quite scarce.

Aside from war & hatte, verbs like kam, ging, sass, are still used sometimes, but otherwise it's always haben/sein + Partizip II.

For example, "es regnete" is not something you normally say or hear in the spoken language.
Xie   Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:53 am GMT
One of my teachers (probably from Köln) seems to prefer

>>in Southern Germany it is never used (except for haben and sein).

this only. I don't know if this is representative of the teaching field.
Mika   Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:24 am GMT
Using Preterite in the day to day spoken language may sound a bit unnatural, but it is still much used in the written language (novels, newspapers, magazines, etc.). I guess it saves space. :)
Skippy   Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:32 am GMT
My professor from Hamburg and my friend from Leipzig both said that the simple past is used with frequency in the South, Switzerland, etc. while the present perfect is preferred up North.

And in my experience in Berlin (two months, so not very long) was that they pretty much exclusively used the present perfect except for "haben" and "sein" and, I believe, the modals.
Xie   Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:18 am GMT
Yep, I forgot the modals. Most of my learning materials also say it's common not to use the past tense except for auxiliaries and modals. The minority says kam and ging are also ok. Only those focusing on written language, btw, also write about umlauts in the Konjunktiv, such as spräche in the Konjunktiv for sprach/sprechen, and hülfe (?) for half/helfen.
Interl   Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:21 am GMT
Thanks for the replies everyone.
Guest   Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:15 am GMT
It's also common to use 'dachte' as opposed to 'Ich habe gedacht'.
Mika   Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:10 pm GMT
<< My professor from Hamburg and my friend from Leipzig both said that the simple past is used with frequency in the South, Switzerland, etc. while the present perfect is preferred up North. >>

It's the other way around. ;-)
Although even in the North, haben/sein + Partizip II is used much more than Preterite.
Earle   Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:14 am GMT
"Also Sprach Zarathustra"