We are not interested to Spanish derivatives. We want to relate Romanian with Italian and French (Romance Languages).
ROmance MI with Romanian
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To Spanish Guest:
1. It is true that the Romanian "cu", means "with" and not "how" as I wrongly have mentioned it above. " Cu" comes from the Lat." Cum" and because we have CUM in Romanian as well with the meaning of How, I mixed them up, accidentally;
2. Fossatum, Massatum or Satus all 3 are possible the Latin words originating the Romanian sat, satul. I don't really know for sure which one originated the SAT, but because in Aromanian dialect, we have FUSATU, for village, I thought that Fossatum might be the better choice to report to. Fossatum means ditch, yes; in the old times, the villages have been souranded by ditches, from protective reasons. SATUS, on the other hand, means (according to the context), either seating/location, or a place for seeds spreading (agricultural activities) or it was used as a reference to a large related family/ethnicity/community. MASSATUM, refers to a mass of people, grouped together. Either ways, which ever of this three words originated the Romanian SATUL, (the village), they all are Latin.
3. I sincerely, didn't see the reason for your demonstration relating those Spanish words to Latin origin. My word by word analyse was reffering to a specific Romanian text presented by one of our forum colleagues before. I never contested the Latin origin of Spanish. My explanation of words had the intention to show why you and maybe other romance languages speakers, might not understand Romanian as I, as a Romanian understand yours, which ever that might be. Reaching this point of discussion again, I assume that for the Romanians it is easier to see what the origin of a Spanish word, for example, might be, because our language is keeping closer to the Latin words formation, respectively, we identify easier the root of the word. How many of the other romance languages are still preserving a Latin term like Strigis (Strigoi), for example? I believe, none of them but Romanian (due to its isolation).
You all use VAMPIRE, an word of German origin. That's what I believe about it and not because of the Slavic influence. For 99% of all Slavic origin words, Romanian preserves at least one Latin alternative. We use vampire as well. In that text, the Slavic word DAR, could be replaced by INSA, form Latin IPSA. For the Slavic NECAZ, we could use FATUM (Lat Fatum) or FATALITATE (Lat FATALITAS) or even SOARTA REA (Lat REAS SORS/TIS). On the other hand, if you want to be right with yourself, you could notice that even in this old and full of regionalisms text ( indicated by Guest, above), just 5 words, (out of 100 maybe), have been of other origin than Latin, (3 slaves, 1 Magyar and 1 Turkish) and all of them have Latin alternatives. That means, that not the Slavic influence is the cause of your difficulty in understanding Romanian, but the morphological structure of its grammar. Have you ever listened to somebody speaking Latin? Go on you tube and give a search on "Latin speaking" or so and see how Latin sounds!
Take care!
P.S. The Slavic and other influneces enriched Romanian language makeing it more colorfull and beautiful, for us, Romanians...and that is all what it counts!
1. It is true that the Romanian "cu", means "with" and not "how" as I wrongly have mentioned it above. " Cu" comes from the Lat." Cum" and because we have CUM in Romanian as well with the meaning of How, I mixed them up, accidentally;
2. Fossatum, Massatum or Satus all 3 are possible the Latin words originating the Romanian sat, satul. I don't really know for sure which one originated the SAT, but because in Aromanian dialect, we have FUSATU, for village, I thought that Fossatum might be the better choice to report to. Fossatum means ditch, yes; in the old times, the villages have been souranded by ditches, from protective reasons. SATUS, on the other hand, means (according to the context), either seating/location, or a place for seeds spreading (agricultural activities) or it was used as a reference to a large related family/ethnicity/community. MASSATUM, refers to a mass of people, grouped together. Either ways, which ever of this three words originated the Romanian SATUL, (the village), they all are Latin.
3. I sincerely, didn't see the reason for your demonstration relating those Spanish words to Latin origin. My word by word analyse was reffering to a specific Romanian text presented by one of our forum colleagues before. I never contested the Latin origin of Spanish. My explanation of words had the intention to show why you and maybe other romance languages speakers, might not understand Romanian as I, as a Romanian understand yours, which ever that might be. Reaching this point of discussion again, I assume that for the Romanians it is easier to see what the origin of a Spanish word, for example, might be, because our language is keeping closer to the Latin words formation, respectively, we identify easier the root of the word. How many of the other romance languages are still preserving a Latin term like Strigis (Strigoi), for example? I believe, none of them but Romanian (due to its isolation).
You all use VAMPIRE, an word of German origin. That's what I believe about it and not because of the Slavic influence. For 99% of all Slavic origin words, Romanian preserves at least one Latin alternative. We use vampire as well. In that text, the Slavic word DAR, could be replaced by INSA, form Latin IPSA. For the Slavic NECAZ, we could use FATUM (Lat Fatum) or FATALITATE (Lat FATALITAS) or even SOARTA REA (Lat REAS SORS/TIS). On the other hand, if you want to be right with yourself, you could notice that even in this old and full of regionalisms text ( indicated by Guest, above), just 5 words, (out of 100 maybe), have been of other origin than Latin, (3 slaves, 1 Magyar and 1 Turkish) and all of them have Latin alternatives. That means, that not the Slavic influence is the cause of your difficulty in understanding Romanian, but the morphological structure of its grammar. Have you ever listened to somebody speaking Latin? Go on you tube and give a search on "Latin speaking" or so and see how Latin sounds!
Take care!
P.S. The Slavic and other influneces enriched Romanian language makeing it more colorfull and beautiful, for us, Romanians...and that is all what it counts!
It is true that Spanish doesn't sound as Latin as Romanian. Spanish has something of Arabic. Think to Al-Andalus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
^Still Spanish is closer to Latin than Romanian.
Marius, I still don't get why is it that you think Romanian people can guess the meaning of words in other Romance languages while others can't do the same with Romanian. Everyone has an idea of the Latin root of the word, even if the words evolved a bit more.
Maybe it's easier for you to understand other Romance languages because you've heard them on other contexts and studied them, or they're more talked about than Romanian, not just because of their Latin roots.
<<How many of the other romance languages are still preserving a Latin term like Strigis (Strigoi), for example? I believe, none of them but Romanian (due to its isolation).>>
Have you ever heard of any vampire legends on other Latin countries other than Romania? Why preserve a word that was never used in the first place?
And you're right, it was probably due to Romanian's isolation that the word adopted in other countries is now "vampire" and not "striguis" or "strigoi" which, btw, is just one word, one exception.
A comparison between some words:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages
Marius, I still don't get why is it that you think Romanian people can guess the meaning of words in other Romance languages while others can't do the same with Romanian. Everyone has an idea of the Latin root of the word, even if the words evolved a bit more.
Maybe it's easier for you to understand other Romance languages because you've heard them on other contexts and studied them, or they're more talked about than Romanian, not just because of their Latin roots.
<<How many of the other romance languages are still preserving a Latin term like Strigis (Strigoi), for example? I believe, none of them but Romanian (due to its isolation).>>
Have you ever heard of any vampire legends on other Latin countries other than Romania? Why preserve a word that was never used in the first place?
And you're right, it was probably due to Romanian's isolation that the word adopted in other countries is now "vampire" and not "striguis" or "strigoi" which, btw, is just one word, one exception.
A comparison between some words:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages
Guest, you said: "And you're right, it was probably due to Romanian's isolation that the word adopted in other countries is now "vampire" and not "striguis" or "strigoi" which, btw, is just one word, one exception." No, strigoi is not one exception, it is just the exception I have given to you. Here are more:
- batran - lat. betranus/veteranus - oldman/women (adverb);
- barbat - lat. berbatus - man;
- padure - lat. padule -; forest;
- iapa - lat. equa - horse female;
- sat - lat. satus, fossatum, massatum - village;
- gust - lat. gustus - test;
- staul - lat . stabulum - barn;
- ses - lat. sesus - plain;
- grau - lat. granum - wheat;
- secara - lat. secale - rye;
- patrunjel - lat. petroselinum - parsley;
- mic - lat. micus - small;
- curat - lat. curare - clean;
- frunza- lat. frondia - leaf;
- soarta - lat. sors/tis - destiny;
- scroafa - lat. scrofa ( pig-female with babies)
-conducta - lat. conductus - pipe;
and so on...I can write pages which such words what you don't preserve anymore.
On the other hand, no, I didn't learn any other romance languages but German and English. Being so easy to understand them (the romance ones), I considered a nonsense to waste my time learning them , and I have chosen German and English instead.
Please don't take it as an insult anything I have said; it was/is not at all my intend to do so. I understand that you are proud of you language and the closeness level of a language to Latin is not making it more or less beautiful, more or less important etc. For me, if Romanian was a Slavic language, be certain that I would have been equally happy as I'm am today. In fact, Serbo-Croatian, Russian, Bulgarian, Polish, Czech etc are very beautiful languages; I very much like how they sound. I watched movies, listened songs etc and I enjoy it.
You know, for a Romanian peasant, (and for a Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese peasant, I'm sure, as well), the most important language is his mother language because it is the language he best understands and best allows him to express the deepest feelings...
best wishes!
- batran - lat. betranus/veteranus - oldman/women (adverb);
- barbat - lat. berbatus - man;
- padure - lat. padule -; forest;
- iapa - lat. equa - horse female;
- sat - lat. satus, fossatum, massatum - village;
- gust - lat. gustus - test;
- staul - lat . stabulum - barn;
- ses - lat. sesus - plain;
- grau - lat. granum - wheat;
- secara - lat. secale - rye;
- patrunjel - lat. petroselinum - parsley;
- mic - lat. micus - small;
- curat - lat. curare - clean;
- frunza- lat. frondia - leaf;
- soarta - lat. sors/tis - destiny;
- scroafa - lat. scrofa ( pig-female with babies)
-conducta - lat. conductus - pipe;
and so on...I can write pages which such words what you don't preserve anymore.
On the other hand, no, I didn't learn any other romance languages but German and English. Being so easy to understand them (the romance ones), I considered a nonsense to waste my time learning them , and I have chosen German and English instead.
Please don't take it as an insult anything I have said; it was/is not at all my intend to do so. I understand that you are proud of you language and the closeness level of a language to Latin is not making it more or less beautiful, more or less important etc. For me, if Romanian was a Slavic language, be certain that I would have been equally happy as I'm am today. In fact, Serbo-Croatian, Russian, Bulgarian, Polish, Czech etc are very beautiful languages; I very much like how they sound. I watched movies, listened songs etc and I enjoy it.
You know, for a Romanian peasant, (and for a Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese peasant, I'm sure, as well), the most important language is his mother language because it is the language he best understands and best allows him to express the deepest feelings...
best wishes!
And I forget to coem back to the initial idea...when you hear such words as those cited above, in Romanian, none of you, (Spanish, Iatalians etc) would understand but because we have the otehr laternatives which are also Latin and closer to yours, we understand what you...that's all!
And by the way, the word "Strigoi" is not kept by Romanians because of its legends ,(which are mainly invented by the Germans and the British - Brian Stoker and realted to ours heroes - Dracula was an hero for us, not a vampire), it is kept becuase it is Latin and before us, our ancestors used as such!
And by the way, the word "Strigoi" is not kept by Romanians because of its legends ,(which are mainly invented by the Germans and the British - Brian Stoker and realted to ours heroes - Dracula was an hero for us, not a vampire), it is kept becuase it is Latin and before us, our ancestors used as such!
Another Guest put under another topic, Spoken Latin, these adresses. If you want to hear it, go there and listen!
Guest Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:26 pm GMT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDg70dIbDUw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs2XuLNEyyU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi_6LIPEP7M&feature=related
Guest Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:26 pm GMT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDg70dIbDUw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs2XuLNEyyU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi_6LIPEP7M&feature=related
">I assume that for the Romanians it is easier to see what the origin of a Spanish word, for example, might be, because our language is keeping closer to the Latin words formation, respectively, we identify easier the root of the word. How many of the other romance languages are still preserving a Latin term like Strigis (Strigoi), for example? I believe, none of them but Romanian (due to its isolation).<"
Well...you assumed incorrectly. Spanish retains much of its Latin orthography; and if not, it still looks noticeable to the untrained eye.
For example: mujer, hombre, cuello, nariz etc. Perhaps Romanian speakers are able to decipher more root words from Latin due to the fact that Romanian has borrowed (or borrows) words from other Romance languages that its pluralistic regarding wordage use. But let us not forget that a remarkanle feature of Spanish (out of all the major Romance languages) it retains the archaic orthography and pronunciation upon conjugating verbs. It has the 5 vocals like Latin therefore its pronunciation is conservatively Latin. One could say Portuguese does too concercning verb conjugation, however, its enunciation is not clear-like
- 5 vocals- like that of Spanish or Latin. As for the Romanian language, it renders endings with - m, ati, u, - but retains the initial Latin feature.
Spanish & Portuguese:
entro = I
entras = You
entra = Him / Her
entran = They
entramos = We
entrais = You all
Romanian:
intru = I
intri = You
intra = Him / Her
intra = They; they don't differentiate "them" with "him / her" !
intram = We
intrati = You all
Latin:
Intro = I
Intras = You
Intrat = Him / Her
Intrant = They
Intramus = We
Intratis = They all
">It is true that Spanish doesn't sound as Latin as Romanian. Spanish has something of Arabic. Think to Al-Andalus.<"
Andalusian Spanish of course has an Arab twist to it but why are you classifying all of Spanish with it? That's being biased and off-right foolish.
Well...you assumed incorrectly. Spanish retains much of its Latin orthography; and if not, it still looks noticeable to the untrained eye.
For example: mujer, hombre, cuello, nariz etc. Perhaps Romanian speakers are able to decipher more root words from Latin due to the fact that Romanian has borrowed (or borrows) words from other Romance languages that its pluralistic regarding wordage use. But let us not forget that a remarkanle feature of Spanish (out of all the major Romance languages) it retains the archaic orthography and pronunciation upon conjugating verbs. It has the 5 vocals like Latin therefore its pronunciation is conservatively Latin. One could say Portuguese does too concercning verb conjugation, however, its enunciation is not clear-like
- 5 vocals- like that of Spanish or Latin. As for the Romanian language, it renders endings with - m, ati, u, - but retains the initial Latin feature.
Spanish & Portuguese:
entro = I
entras = You
entra = Him / Her
entran = They
entramos = We
entrais = You all
Romanian:
intru = I
intri = You
intra = Him / Her
intra = They; they don't differentiate "them" with "him / her" !
intram = We
intrati = You all
Latin:
Intro = I
Intras = You
Intrat = Him / Her
Intrant = They
Intramus = We
Intratis = They all
">It is true that Spanish doesn't sound as Latin as Romanian. Spanish has something of Arabic. Think to Al-Andalus.<"
Andalusian Spanish of course has an Arab twist to it but why are you classifying all of Spanish with it? That's being biased and off-right foolish.
I have listened to the three YOUTUBE Latin conservations and it sounds rathe like Spanish-like & Italian-like, and with its own enunciation.
"Perhaps Romanian speakers are able to decipher more root words from Latin due to the fact that Romanian has borrowed (or borrows) words from other Romance languages that its pluralistic regarding wordage use. But let us not forget that a remarkanle feature of Spanish (out of all the major Romance languages"
I hope you are not serious by saying that... but, If you say so, let it be so!
In rest, I don't have anything to comment any more because I don't want to irritate anybody...
Thank you!
I hope you are not serious by saying that... but, If you say so, let it be so!
In rest, I don't have anything to comment any more because I don't want to irritate anybody...
Thank you!
Sorry I forgot to identify myself before ! (Guest@ Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:16 pm GMT)
No, I'm not taking it as an insult and I don't get irritated by it.
I was just trying to debate the subject, since I actually never heard or read Romanian in my life. It's hard for me to believe that Romanian people can understand my language while I can't theirs, or yours, especially since Latin is being brought here.
I mean, Latin is precisely what Romance languages have in common, it's a given.
Just to let you know, the words you gave as examples aren't really exceptions, since they exist in Portuguese language as well (and I'm sure in other Romance languages as well). They sometimes carry a different meaning than in Romanian, which I added below:
Lat. betranus/veteranus - Rom. batran - Port. veterano
Lat. berbatus - Rom. barbat - Port. barbado
Lat. padule - Rom. padure (forest) - Port. paul (swamp, marsh)
Lat. equa - Rom. iapa - Port. égua
Lat. satus/ fossatum/ massatum - Rom. sat (village) - Port. semeado (planted)/ fossa (ditch)
Lat. gustus - Rom. gust (test) - Port. gosto (taste)
Lat. stabulum - Rom. staul - Port. estábulo
Lat. granum - Rom. grau (wheat) - Port. grão (grain)
Lat. secale - Rom. secara (rye) - Port. segar (to cut cereal grass)
Lat. petroselinum - Rom. patrunjel - Port. salsa (derived from selinum alone)
Lat. micus - Rom. mic - Port. micro?
Lat. curare - Rom. curat (clean) - Port. curar (heal)
Lat. frondia - Rom. frunza - Port. folha
Lat. sors/ tis - Rom. soarta - Port. sorte
Lat. scrofa - Rom. scroafa (female pig with baby pigs) - Port. porco (pig. from Vulgar Lat. porcu. Scrofa is its scientific name, still preserved)
Lat. conductus - Rom. conducta (pipe) - Port. condutor (that conducts)
No, I'm not taking it as an insult and I don't get irritated by it.
I was just trying to debate the subject, since I actually never heard or read Romanian in my life. It's hard for me to believe that Romanian people can understand my language while I can't theirs, or yours, especially since Latin is being brought here.
I mean, Latin is precisely what Romance languages have in common, it's a given.
Just to let you know, the words you gave as examples aren't really exceptions, since they exist in Portuguese language as well (and I'm sure in other Romance languages as well). They sometimes carry a different meaning than in Romanian, which I added below:
Lat. betranus/veteranus - Rom. batran - Port. veterano
Lat. berbatus - Rom. barbat - Port. barbado
Lat. padule - Rom. padure (forest) - Port. paul (swamp, marsh)
Lat. equa - Rom. iapa - Port. égua
Lat. satus/ fossatum/ massatum - Rom. sat (village) - Port. semeado (planted)/ fossa (ditch)
Lat. gustus - Rom. gust (test) - Port. gosto (taste)
Lat. stabulum - Rom. staul - Port. estábulo
Lat. granum - Rom. grau (wheat) - Port. grão (grain)
Lat. secale - Rom. secara (rye) - Port. segar (to cut cereal grass)
Lat. petroselinum - Rom. patrunjel - Port. salsa (derived from selinum alone)
Lat. micus - Rom. mic - Port. micro?
Lat. curare - Rom. curat (clean) - Port. curar (heal)
Lat. frondia - Rom. frunza - Port. folha
Lat. sors/ tis - Rom. soarta - Port. sorte
Lat. scrofa - Rom. scroafa (female pig with baby pigs) - Port. porco (pig. from Vulgar Lat. porcu. Scrofa is its scientific name, still preserved)
Lat. conductus - Rom. conducta (pipe) - Port. condutor (that conducts)
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