Why do some here wish that English was linguistically pure?
The chance to purify English from Romance influence happened about eight hundred ago and wasn't taken. Besides, what's wrong with having Romance words when so many of them are quite nice? I would hate to lose words such as "enchantment" or "courage" for instance. Do you see Teutonic words as morally superior to Romance words? I'm not trying to be flippant, I just want to know why some of you seem so filled with anger over the high number of Romance words in English.
If it disappoints you that English speakers today are unable to read Beowulf in its original form, take comfort in the fact that modern Scandinavians can't read the Old Norse Sagas either (save for Icelanders). Also, I encourage you to read an article in Swedish on Wikipedia; you'll see that they too have been bitten by the Latin bug.
Personally, I'm all for reviving both old Anglo-Saxon terms as well as Anglo-Norman terms that have fallen into disuse.
I don't see the point in reviving any old terms. They probably fell out of use for a reason.
<<I don't see the point in reviving any old terms. They probably fell out of use for a reason.>>
I take it you're not a poet?
As for words always falling out of use for legitimate reasons, don't you think that the word "afterwit" would be useful? I think that we've all had those unfortunate times in which the perfect thing to say did not come until the situation had passed. "Afterwit" perfectly describes this phenomenon. Not to mention that scenario #1 would be so much simpler than scenario # 2.
1.
Jim: What's wrong?
Josh: I'm having a case of afterwit.
Jim: That sucks, but don't be too down on yourself about it; it happens to the best of us.
2.
Jim: What's wrong?
Josh: You know those times when you realize the perfect thing to say only once it's too late?
Jim: Yeah, I think so.
Josh: That's what I'm experiencing.
Jim: That sucks, but don't be too down on yourself about it; it happens to the best of us.
"Afterwit" does have a name in modern English, two actually: treppenwitz, and l'esprit de l'escalier, both meaning "wit of the stairway" -- referring to the notion of getting the idea when you're already on your way down the stairs. Both terms are very likely to need to be explained if you use them, though, so unless your buddy already knows the term, the result would probably be even longer than #2.
In any case, I doubt there are any "pure" languages. Even languages like Old English probably contain tons of loanwords -- or anglicized descendants of them -- that are unidentifiable as such because we know nothing of the languages they were borrowed from.
- Kef
Yeah, the English could have chucked out all the French-Latin words if they wanted to but instead they actually borrowed a whole truckload more of them.
I experience amorous sentiments every occasion I aurally perceive the use of a vociferation containing a grand quantity of linguistic units of Latin origins. Regarding the opposing position in this debate, I am extremely vexed on those occasions I am obliged to endure the continuous vocalisation of terms of Germanic origins, as I consider linguistic units of this class to be inelegant and devoid of culture and education.
I feel great every time I hear a lot of words with Latin roots. Talking about the other side of this fight, I am bewildered on those times I have to hear words with Germanic roots, as I see these words to be rough and lacking in high-living and learning.
I express my appreciation to the Guest whose message precedes mine, you have proven my point in an elegant and subtle manner. Judge for yourselves, observers of this topic, of the preceding messages, one infused with Latinate linguistic units, the other with Germanic, which appears as more sophisticated and cultivated? I doubt you will encounter any problems in replying to this question! I will continue to utilise similar Latin cognates during the rest of my existence on this planet!
<<I don't see the point in reviving any old terms. They probably fell out of use for a reason. >>
Well, that's exactly what Renaissance writers did with all the Latin and Greek derived terms we happily brook ("enjoy") in English today. They were edcuced old quids ("revived old terms")
<<I feel great every time I hear a lot of words with Latin roots. Talking about the other side of this fight, I am bewildered on those times I have to hear words with Germanic roots, as I see these words to be rough and lacking in high-living and learning. >>
It's not the fact that you're hearing words of Latin roots as opposed to Germanic roots. You'd feel the same regardless whether you even knew what the roots were (not implying that you don't).
The feeling you're getting comes from hearing words of a particular register, which in English just happens to be largely Latin derived (but it doesn't necessarily have to be this way to give you that same feeling). If you were Russian, and spoke only Russian, you would get the same exhilaration from Russian high register, and it barely contains any Latin words (though it does contain some)
In English, we've duped ourselves into believing that high register *has* to be Latin derived. I ask you: Does it?
If you got rid of the romance words, you'd eliminate the richness of basically the entirety of English literature, so it's a ridiculous proposition. Part of what makes the English literary tradition spectacular is the unique and dramatic conflict between the Germanic and Romantic influences on the language--the synonyms, rhythmic variety, the allusive aspect of the language.
Shakespeare alone would certainly be nothing without the Romantic/Germanic contrast. You'd have none of his brilliant Germano-Romantic neologisms like "countless" or "lackluster," would lose many of his mostly widely used turns of phrase ("foregone conclusion," "cold comfort," "green-eyed monster"). Nor would you have many of his brilliant puns (e.g. Hamlet's bawdy punning of French-derived "country" to mean Old Norse "cunt").
So whoever proposes we eliminate the Romantic words is out of their minds.
...cont.
btw, Old English had an eloquent and sophisticated high register as well.
When William Duke of Normandy won the Battle of Hastings, he immediately set about to eliminate all of the Old Engish aristocracy and intelligencia (some 100,000 heads--save one bishop) who spoke the more sophisticated levels of our language. With them went the more refined and cultured speech of our ancestors, and our language was left in the hands of farmers and peasants.
When it came time for the English middle class to ascend, they were left bankrupt of these terms, and without the ability to reinvent or revive them, were forced to borrow them from other languages, mostly French and Latin.
This is fine. I have no hate or dislike for Latin terms. Many of them are quite nice. However, I think enough is enough already. When it comes down to us having to borrow the same Latin root in its pure Latin form (eg. "forum", "area", "focus") I think we've exhasuted this resource (yawn).
It's high time to get some new blood in here, you know, mix it up a bit...
<< Judge for yourselves, observers of this topic, of the preceding messages, one infused with Latinate linguistic units, the other with Germanic, which appears as more sophisticated and cultivated? >>
The one written with Germanic words, because it's easier to read and its meaning is more clear. The overblown Latinate post sounds more like somebody trying to sound sophisticated than somebody who actually is.
- Kef
My personal feeling is that the reason so many English speakers seek "linguistic purity" (whatever that means) with English is possibly because of "mutual intelligence-envy" (I came up with that, I'm proud of myself) where languages like Dutch and German have a huge degree of mutual intelligibility, as does Italian with Spanish, and Russian with Serbian.
At least that's what's going through my mind when I'm wishing there was a degree of linguistic purity to English. One of the (less important) reasons many English speakers are so poor with other languages is that no language is especially easy to learn. (couple this with lack of exposure, laziness, etc.).
Couldn't care less about linguistic purity, but the problem is that the latinate words always sound kind of lofty and pretentious next to the anglo-saxon, so I sometimes find myself having to avoid using words which has the precise meaning I want because I know it's going to sound pretentious. So yeah I wish that the higher register was mainly Germanic words because then there wouldn't be any stigma attached to using them (because they would be composed of basic english roots).