Latin Pronounciation

Minä   Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:00 pm GMT
When reading Latin, I read:
- C like a K, even before E, I, AE, OE
- G always like G in 'Gay'
- V like a U or a W
- AE & OE as diphthongs
Guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:10 pm GMT
<<When reading Latin, I read:
- C like a K, even before E, I, AE, OE
- G always like G in 'Gay'
- V like a U or a W
- AE & OE as diphthongs >>

Same with me
Guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:23 pm GMT
That's not Latin. Amateurs!
Guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:37 pm GMT
<<That's not Latin. Amateurs! >>

Yes it is. That's how the letters were originally pronounced until later mispronounced by internal development and foreigners.

Krauts!
Guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:44 pm GMT
Oh really? Maybe you are the mispronounced internal foreigner!
Guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:47 pm GMT
<<Oh really? Maybe you are the mispronounced internal foreigner! >>

(sigh) lemme see...perhaps you are of the camp that says C before fron vowel is pronounced like 'ch' in English/Spanish

V is 'v' in Mediaeval Latin

otherwise, you must agree to the rest yes?
Imperator   Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:09 pm GMT
No!
I am from The Eternal City. You are from some camp.
C before "e" or "i" (not before a/o/u) is pronounced like in Italian.
Guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:18 pm GMT
<<C before "e" or "i" (not before a/o/u) is pronounced like in Italian. >>

Uh...that's what this says:
<C before fron vowel is pronounced like 'ch' in English/Spanish >

and the Italian 'ci'/'ce' was NOT the original pronunciation of Latin ci/ce.

-cipare from capere was pronounced -kipare (<kapere)

loser
Caspian   Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:57 pm GMT
Anyone who uses a hard 'c' sound before e and i are probably wrong, look at all the evidence from the Romance languages
Imperator   Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:04 pm GMT
>>Uh...that's what this says:
>><C before fron vowel is pronounced like 'ch' in English/Spanish >

Guest-loser, you chose well your signature.
"a" is a front vowel too and "ca" in Italian it is not pronounced like "cha" in English.

ce/ci pronounced like in Italian was already present in Vulgar Latin. That's why they say "noche" in Spanish like "noce" in Italian, or "ceara" in Romanian like "cera" in Italian.

So Caspian is right, you shouldn't use C for "c" before "e" or "i". Use /tʃ/ instead.
guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:12 pm GMT
<<Anyone who uses a hard 'c' sound before e and i are probably wrong, look at all the evidence from the Romance languages >>

No.
C was hard in ALL positions in Latin.

It was not until Late Latin/Proto-Romance that it was softened to 'ch' before front vowels i and e, then to ts in French and Spanish, so the hard C is correct

This is just another attempt by romance speakers to bridge the Latin divide (the gap between Latin and their crude speech). Only Sardinian preserves the true Latin sound

"A characteristic feature of the writing systems of almost all Romance languages is that the Latin letters c and g — which originally always represented the "hard" consonants /k/ and /g/ respectively — now represent "soft" consonants when they come before e, i, or y. This is due to a general palatalization of /k/ and /ɡ/ that occurred in the transition to Vulgar Latin. Since the written form of all the affected words was tied to the classical language, the shift was accommodated by a change in the pronunciation rules. The soft sounds of c and g vary from language to language. The consonant t, which was also palatalized, changes pronunciation in French (and English) orthography, but in the other Romance languages the spelling was altered to match the new sound. An exception is Sardinian, whose plosives remained hard before e and i in many words."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages
Imperator   Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:01 pm GMT
Oh, puhleez! Give me a break! Sardinians were too dumb to speak Latin well, so even today they use both C and /tʃ/ for the same words:

http://www.regione.sardegna.it/documenti/1_72_20060418160308.pdf

Also:
"The Roman domination, beginning in 238 BC, obviously brought Latin to Sardinia, but Latin was not able to completely supplant the Pre-Roman Sardinian language. Some obscure roots remained unaltered, and in many cases it was Latin that was made to accept the local roots, such as nur (in Nuraghe, as well as Nuoro and many other toponyms). Roman culture, on the other hand, was undoubtedly dominant; Barbagia derives its name from the Greek word Ό βάρβαρος-ου that means stuttering because its people couldn't speak Latin well. Cicero, who called Sardinians latrones matrucati (thieves with rough sheep-wool cloaks) to emphasise Roman superiority, helped to spread this conception." - from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language

One thing is sure, that dumb puny island shall not be used today as an example or standard for Latin pronunciation.
Dixi
Guest   Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:20 pm GMT
<<Oh, puhleez! Give me a break! Sardinians were too dumb to speak Latin well, so even today they use both C and /tʃ/ for the same words:
>>

No one said that the Sardinians spoke Latin correctly--or even best. My post was not an endorsement of Sardinanian language. It was just to point out that Latin C was always hard, and they are evidence of it. That's all.

Now, back to the original fraign ("question")
Guest   Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:25 pm GMT
<<Anyone who uses a hard 'c' sound before e and i are probably wrong, look at all the evidence from the Romance languages >>

No, Caspian, you have it backwards [AGAIN]
This is hard evidence that the Romance languages have it incorrect
Guest   Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:36 pm GMT
<<No, Caspian, you have it backwards [AGAIN]
This is hard evidence that the Romance languages have it incorrect >>

To make this clearer, this (hypothetical situation) would be like:

If England conquered Brazil and the Brazilians learned English as a result. However, the Brazilians mispronounced English 'th' as 's', like "I sink so" for "I think so", etc.

Then Brazil split up into eight separate countries, all with divergent dialects of this Brazilian English (with the 's' sound for 'th'). These dialects later become separate languages and form a language bloc equivalent to the romance languages.

At the same time, the English in England was undergoing change of its 'th' sound too, to 'f' ("I fink so" for "I think so")

Now, 500 years later, Caspian in Britain comes along and says: Hmmm, all the Brazilian languages say 's' for Classical English 'th' and my language uses 'f'. Therefore, "Anyone who uses a 'th' sound for 'th' is probably wrong, look at all the evidence from the Brazilian languages"

Get it?