Damian, as my Lithuanian friend said, "America has all of the very best...and all of the very worst."
She said it best.
She said it best.
"faggot"
<<As a European myself I would say that the above statement is spot on.....it does exactly that, I'm afraid. It really, really does. And hearing it being yelled out over there with such venom really does add to the reasons why so many Europeans ....which term covers us Brits as well, remember......appreciate the Atlantic Ocean so much.>>
Damien, I agree. I and others have often argued against the anti-American bigotry we see on this forum. Visiting Europe I've always tried to represent our country well... And I know a lot of other Americans who work at dispelling the stereotype. But this is the side of America that makes our work harder.
Have a look at Jasper's comment.. he's right. We seem to have the best and the worst to offer.
Damien, I agree. I and others have often argued against the anti-American bigotry we see on this forum. Visiting Europe I've always tried to represent our country well... And I know a lot of other Americans who work at dispelling the stereotype. But this is the side of America that makes our work harder.
Have a look at Jasper's comment.. he's right. We seem to have the best and the worst to offer.
I love to have a big long suck of a thick, meaty faggot after work. My favourite brand is Marlborough.
The fact is - there is a hell of a lot to admire about the Americans as a race of people. You'd be hard pressed to find a nation more positive in outlook generally, and with a "we can do it" frame of mind, no matter what the odds. I think that's really nice. Whether or not you sweep things under the carpet, so to speak, and pretend they are not there I really don't know, but the American spirit really does shine through as one of optimism and positive thinking, which, by and large is not shared to the same extent in Europe, certainly not here in Britain anyway, where we tend to overplay the negatives about ourselves more than just a little, and downplay our good points, which others see but we don't choose to. Maybe that's why we have the reputation for self deprecation.
That is the best side, as you guys mentioned.
On the other hand, there are aspects of American life that we don't go for all that much - the worst bits, again as you mentioned. This thread topic is one, probably related to the extreme and rather disturbing religiosity we see as being a large part life in large parts of the USA. While at the same time the Americans not only produce more porno stuff than does Europe, where religious belief is very much more of a private matter.
I have read about Brits trying to make friends with local Americans in certain parts of America, and when it becomes known to these Americans that the Brits are not "churchgoers" (the Americans have been known to ask which church they attend before they even ask for their names) - then that's the last the Brits see of these guys, - they just don't want to know, apparently, and it leaves the Brits gobsmacked, to use a typial British expression! ;-) Here, church attendance or avowed religious belief is not a pre-requisite for most friendships and social situations! :-)
One couple from the UK now resident in Utah had the brother of one of them visit, and he happened to be gay. As soon as that fact became known to their friends and neighbours in the place where they lived they were shunned from thereon. It was as if they had become lepers overnight. Would you believe that? It's true, apparently.
That is the best side, as you guys mentioned.
On the other hand, there are aspects of American life that we don't go for all that much - the worst bits, again as you mentioned. This thread topic is one, probably related to the extreme and rather disturbing religiosity we see as being a large part life in large parts of the USA. While at the same time the Americans not only produce more porno stuff than does Europe, where religious belief is very much more of a private matter.
I have read about Brits trying to make friends with local Americans in certain parts of America, and when it becomes known to these Americans that the Brits are not "churchgoers" (the Americans have been known to ask which church they attend before they even ask for their names) - then that's the last the Brits see of these guys, - they just don't want to know, apparently, and it leaves the Brits gobsmacked, to use a typial British expression! ;-) Here, church attendance or avowed religious belief is not a pre-requisite for most friendships and social situations! :-)
One couple from the UK now resident in Utah had the brother of one of them visit, and he happened to be gay. As soon as that fact became known to their friends and neighbours in the place where they lived they were shunned from thereon. It was as if they had become lepers overnight. Would you believe that? It's true, apparently.
I think Jasper makes a good point, but in my opinion somehow doesn't get the real issue. What America is is not the problem; it is the difference between what it is and the image it tries to portray to the world (and itself).
More than anywhere else I know, America is a country indoctrinated. While you should love your country and support it, you must play by it's rules and not question the received wisdom for fear of appearing unpatriotic. In school you must stand up and swear allegiance to the flag and learn that while the founding fathers were very wise and brave, you must not think to reform the country now, because it's perfect.
Quite simply the rest of the world is not fooled. Why do you not live by the perfectly reasonable principles that the founders of the USA had?
More than anywhere else I know, America is a country indoctrinated. While you should love your country and support it, you must play by it's rules and not question the received wisdom for fear of appearing unpatriotic. In school you must stand up and swear allegiance to the flag and learn that while the founding fathers were very wise and brave, you must not think to reform the country now, because it's perfect.
Quite simply the rest of the world is not fooled. Why do you not live by the perfectly reasonable principles that the founders of the USA had?
<<As a European myself I would say that the above statement is spot on.....it does exactly that, I'm afraid. It really, really does. And hearing it being yelled out over there with such venom really does add to the reasons why so many Europeans ....which term covers us Brits as well, remember......appreciate the Atlantic Ocean so much. >>
Since when is European opinion and thought the Standard?
Who's to say that we're not looking down on stereotypes about them (which we do have I might add) and appreciate the Atlantic Ocean even more than they possibly could ;) hmmmMM?
Since when is European opinion and thought the Standard?
Who's to say that we're not looking down on stereotypes about them (which we do have I might add) and appreciate the Atlantic Ocean even more than they possibly could ;) hmmmMM?
<<More than anywhere else I know, America is a country indoctrinated. While you should love your country and support it, you must play by it's rules and not question the received wisdom for fear of appearing unpatriotic. In school you must stand up and swear allegiance to the flag and learn that while the founding fathers were very wise and brave, you must not think to reform the country now, because it's perfect.>>
Again, this is just stereotype and one far from reality. Yes, there is patriotism in the U.S. but this doesn't come without dissent as well. Some would like it to, but it is obvious that they can't succeed. I can assure you that dissent is still alive and well in the U.S. with more than 2/3 of the population disapproving of the administration and even more disapproving of congress. Apparently European news chooses not to cover the large demonstrations that frequently occur in the U.S. But why would they, when it doesn't fit with European sentiment? I have been at many and have even organized a few. Two of my favorite quotes by the writer James Baldwin, a man who I am sure was called both nigger and faggot in his life time, address these well:
"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."
"American history is longer, larger, more various, more beautiful, and more terrible than anything anyone has ever said about it."
I should also state that faggot is a word I rarely hear used. Yes it is used, but not frequently, or at least not in my presence, which, since I am gay, says something about how it has changed over the years. I do still hear gay used in place of stupid, but this is usually done by the dumbest of teenagers.
Again, this is just stereotype and one far from reality. Yes, there is patriotism in the U.S. but this doesn't come without dissent as well. Some would like it to, but it is obvious that they can't succeed. I can assure you that dissent is still alive and well in the U.S. with more than 2/3 of the population disapproving of the administration and even more disapproving of congress. Apparently European news chooses not to cover the large demonstrations that frequently occur in the U.S. But why would they, when it doesn't fit with European sentiment? I have been at many and have even organized a few. Two of my favorite quotes by the writer James Baldwin, a man who I am sure was called both nigger and faggot in his life time, address these well:
"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."
"American history is longer, larger, more various, more beautiful, and more terrible than anything anyone has ever said about it."
I should also state that faggot is a word I rarely hear used. Yes it is used, but not frequently, or at least not in my presence, which, since I am gay, says something about how it has changed over the years. I do still hear gay used in place of stupid, but this is usually done by the dumbest of teenagers.
Wintereis,
It is a stereotype, and as such a generalisation, but it is not far from reality. I chose my words careful and said 'more than anywhere else I know'. I am sure other places suffer from similar problems, but nowhere else I have spent a reasonable amount of time is anything like the US in this regard. I lived in the US for five years.
It's a good question as to why such demonstrations are not in the media much in Europe, but a more important question, one which relates to my post, is why are they not in the US media?
I very much like the quote 'American history is longer, larger, more various, more beautiful, and more terrible than anything anyone has ever said about it'. And I know it is at least true in spirit, but it just seems to support my stance. It seems to me most American school children are not taught any kind of balanced history. How many Americans know there was an elected government in Massachusetts before the War of Independence? How many Americans know it was the French who won the War of Independence? That a whisky tax was impossed by the US goverment similar to the tax on tea after the War? to I could go on...
It is a stereotype, and as such a generalisation, but it is not far from reality. I chose my words careful and said 'more than anywhere else I know'. I am sure other places suffer from similar problems, but nowhere else I have spent a reasonable amount of time is anything like the US in this regard. I lived in the US for five years.
It's a good question as to why such demonstrations are not in the media much in Europe, but a more important question, one which relates to my post, is why are they not in the US media?
I very much like the quote 'American history is longer, larger, more various, more beautiful, and more terrible than anything anyone has ever said about it'. And I know it is at least true in spirit, but it just seems to support my stance. It seems to me most American school children are not taught any kind of balanced history. How many Americans know there was an elected government in Massachusetts before the War of Independence? How many Americans know it was the French who won the War of Independence? That a whisky tax was impossed by the US goverment similar to the tax on tea after the War? to I could go on...
I'm a straight male. Yet I've been called "faggot" or "fag" as an insult before. It's just plain stupid.
<<More than anywhere else I know, America is a country indoctrinated. >>
That's the stereotype abroad, but as Wintereis states, it's kind of off balance. Maybe in the past it was more true, but we're the generation that grew up after Watergate. We're skeptical and jaded and we don't trust our government, by and large.
<<While you should love your country and support it, you must play by it's rules and not question the received wisdom for fear of appearing unpatriotic.>>
You hear that from the Republicans but no one buys it... not even them. When Bill Clinton was president and he sent soldiers to Somalia, it was the Republicans who were objecting and the Democrats who called the Republicans unpatriotic. In short, "unpatriotic" is a political term that each side sues to denigrate the other side, but the word has no real meaning anymore.
<<In school you must stand up and swear allegiance to the flag>>
It's customary but people refuse and it's not a problem to refuse. Ironically, some people refuse on religious grounds!
<< you must not think to reform the country now, because it's perfect.>>
Well, I've lived here all my life and I've never heard that! It would be much calmer here if we all felt that way. In fact our country has been polarized for some time with two sides constantly vying to reform according to their own agenda... not just politicians, but the populace in general is constantly complaining about "the mess we're in and we need to change it..."
<<Quite simply the rest of the world is not fooled. Why do you not live by the perfectly reasonable principles that the founders of the USA had?>>
There's a substantial portion of the population (myself included) that agrees with you on that point. In those days govt was less intrusive. Many of us would like to get back to that.
<<It's a good question as to why such demonstrations are not in the media much in Europe, but a more important question, one which relates to my post, is why are they not in the US media?>>
Coverage of the demonstrations are in our media almost every day. Had you been here in the 1970s you would have seen riots on television daily.
Simply put, the US is not ideologically homogenous by any means. We may portray that image abroad, or the media outlets may prefer to portray that image, but it's not true. You can't even go to a family picnic without aunts and uncles and cousins a fathers and sons taking different sides, getting emotional and sometimes storming out. As I mentioned before, sometimes just for the sake of piece of mind, I wish we were less of a house divided.
Finally, marend, thanks for posting your thoughts and for posting them in a non-inflamatory fashion. This kind of dialogue is good for everyone.
That's the stereotype abroad, but as Wintereis states, it's kind of off balance. Maybe in the past it was more true, but we're the generation that grew up after Watergate. We're skeptical and jaded and we don't trust our government, by and large.
<<While you should love your country and support it, you must play by it's rules and not question the received wisdom for fear of appearing unpatriotic.>>
You hear that from the Republicans but no one buys it... not even them. When Bill Clinton was president and he sent soldiers to Somalia, it was the Republicans who were objecting and the Democrats who called the Republicans unpatriotic. In short, "unpatriotic" is a political term that each side sues to denigrate the other side, but the word has no real meaning anymore.
<<In school you must stand up and swear allegiance to the flag>>
It's customary but people refuse and it's not a problem to refuse. Ironically, some people refuse on religious grounds!
<< you must not think to reform the country now, because it's perfect.>>
Well, I've lived here all my life and I've never heard that! It would be much calmer here if we all felt that way. In fact our country has been polarized for some time with two sides constantly vying to reform according to their own agenda... not just politicians, but the populace in general is constantly complaining about "the mess we're in and we need to change it..."
<<Quite simply the rest of the world is not fooled. Why do you not live by the perfectly reasonable principles that the founders of the USA had?>>
There's a substantial portion of the population (myself included) that agrees with you on that point. In those days govt was less intrusive. Many of us would like to get back to that.
<<It's a good question as to why such demonstrations are not in the media much in Europe, but a more important question, one which relates to my post, is why are they not in the US media?>>
Coverage of the demonstrations are in our media almost every day. Had you been here in the 1970s you would have seen riots on television daily.
Simply put, the US is not ideologically homogenous by any means. We may portray that image abroad, or the media outlets may prefer to portray that image, but it's not true. You can't even go to a family picnic without aunts and uncles and cousins a fathers and sons taking different sides, getting emotional and sometimes storming out. As I mentioned before, sometimes just for the sake of piece of mind, I wish we were less of a house divided.
Finally, marend, thanks for posting your thoughts and for posting them in a non-inflamatory fashion. This kind of dialogue is good for everyone.
<<Since when is European opinion and thought the Standard?
Who's to say that we're not looking down on stereotypes about them (which we do have I might add) and appreciate the Atlantic Ocean even more than they possibly could ;) hmmmMM? >>
We do and can continue to hold onto negative stereotypes... it's part of being human. The problem is, to the extent we do so, we do ourselves a disservice. If a European prefers to hold all Americans as evil, he or she will forclose future learning and understanding and plaes himself firmly in the same camp as the redneck evanglist Americans he detests (but has never met in real life). If you enjoy believing that Europeans are all arrogant and smelly, you will miss out valuable associations at worst, and at best, both you and the stereotying European will confine yourselves to the realm of ignorant bigots who base all their opinions on superficial perceptions. I prefer not to place myself in that category. I'd rather try to understand issues more thoroughly than some of the antiAmerican posters I've seen on this forum.
Who's to say that we're not looking down on stereotypes about them (which we do have I might add) and appreciate the Atlantic Ocean even more than they possibly could ;) hmmmMM? >>
We do and can continue to hold onto negative stereotypes... it's part of being human. The problem is, to the extent we do so, we do ourselves a disservice. If a European prefers to hold all Americans as evil, he or she will forclose future learning and understanding and plaes himself firmly in the same camp as the redneck evanglist Americans he detests (but has never met in real life). If you enjoy believing that Europeans are all arrogant and smelly, you will miss out valuable associations at worst, and at best, both you and the stereotying European will confine yourselves to the realm of ignorant bigots who base all their opinions on superficial perceptions. I prefer not to place myself in that category. I'd rather try to understand issues more thoroughly than some of the antiAmerican posters I've seen on this forum.
<<This thread topic is one, probably related to the extreme and rather disturbing religiosity we see as being a large part life in large parts of the USA.>>
One of my favorite American authors, David Sedaris, was studying French in France and his French teacher was rabidly anti-American. Sedaris is gay and vey progressive. Once his teacher accused him of being a typical American puritan and he responded, "how can the US be a nation of puritans when most people I know have had a three-some?".
That's always been my perspective as well. For those of us raised in the post-summer of love generation, we grew up with "sex, drugs and rock and roll". For people of my generation, religiosity is foreign to us, a 19th century concept. Now that I've seen more of the country I realize there are pockets of the country where there are plenty of religious people and as I've gotten to know some of them I've become more tolerant. There are good people who are also religious and who are not necessarily crazed bombers... but I mention all this to point out that we're not all churchgoers.. and I actually don't know anyone who attends a church regularly. "not that there's anything wrong with that" as Jerry Seinfeld would say.
One of my favorite American authors, David Sedaris, was studying French in France and his French teacher was rabidly anti-American. Sedaris is gay and vey progressive. Once his teacher accused him of being a typical American puritan and he responded, "how can the US be a nation of puritans when most people I know have had a three-some?".
That's always been my perspective as well. For those of us raised in the post-summer of love generation, we grew up with "sex, drugs and rock and roll". For people of my generation, religiosity is foreign to us, a 19th century concept. Now that I've seen more of the country I realize there are pockets of the country where there are plenty of religious people and as I've gotten to know some of them I've become more tolerant. There are good people who are also religious and who are not necessarily crazed bombers... but I mention all this to point out that we're not all churchgoers.. and I actually don't know anyone who attends a church regularly. "not that there's anything wrong with that" as Jerry Seinfeld would say.
After having a chance to sleep on it, I've decided there is something decidedly fishy about Texan Bill. The psychology is wrong; all wrong, from A to Z.
The kind of knee-jerk redneck he purports to be doesn't seem to be the type of intellectual who'd be interested in Antimoon; rather, you would expect to see this type of person on a forum related to rodeos, country music, or perhaps wrestling. (Of course there are American conservatives here on Antimoon but they seem to be the gentler type.)
I'm inclined to believe that Texan Bill is really a rabidly anti-American European, probably from the Continent, who's pretending to be a Texan in order to show Americans in the worst possible light; if so, it qualifies as very effective propaganda--I myself was fooled by it.
Does anybody else ever remember seeing posts by a "Texan Bill"? I don't.
The kind of knee-jerk redneck he purports to be doesn't seem to be the type of intellectual who'd be interested in Antimoon; rather, you would expect to see this type of person on a forum related to rodeos, country music, or perhaps wrestling. (Of course there are American conservatives here on Antimoon but they seem to be the gentler type.)
I'm inclined to believe that Texan Bill is really a rabidly anti-American European, probably from the Continent, who's pretending to be a Texan in order to show Americans in the worst possible light; if so, it qualifies as very effective propaganda--I myself was fooled by it.
Does anybody else ever remember seeing posts by a "Texan Bill"? I don't.
<<After having a chance to sleep on it, I've decided there is something decidedly fishy about Texan Bill. The psychology is wrong; all wrong, from A to Z.
The kind of knee-jerk redneck he purports to be doesn't seem to be the type of intellectual who'd be interested in Antimoon>>
um, I think that was the point. It's called "humor"
God Bless Texan Bill
(and of course he isn't really from Texas and his name isn't Bill, but what he said was thought-provoking, brutally honest, and quite funny) so leave him alone :)
The kind of knee-jerk redneck he purports to be doesn't seem to be the type of intellectual who'd be interested in Antimoon>>
um, I think that was the point. It's called "humor"
God Bless Texan Bill
(and of course he isn't really from Texas and his name isn't Bill, but what he said was thought-provoking, brutally honest, and quite funny) so leave him alone :)