Who really knows to speak a language?

Guest   Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:24 am GMT
A lot of people say, even in this forum, English is spoken by most people. It is the “Lingua Franca”. Or German, the second widely spoken language (second only to English) in Europe, Or German, Spanish, French, Arabic, Chinese is spoken by……. But my question is:

How many people really can speak a language?

There are many people who only know to Speak a basic English or German, Chinese, Spanish, Arabic, French… So Can we say they know to speak English or German, French, Spanish, Chinese, Arabic....?

Thanx
Guest   Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:18 am GMT
This is something I have often pondered as well. How many people that claim to speak a language are actually proficient in it?
Caspian   Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:28 am GMT
Here's a thought:
Perhaps there should be an international standard for language proficiency. For example, if someone learns Chinese, they can obtain a universally recognized test result to prove that they can read, write, listen, and speak in everyday / business Chinese. Then, they could claim that they spoke it.

If this were devised for every language, then it would mean that people know whether or not they can really speak it. There would be 2 results; pass and fail. Nothing else.
Guest   Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:32 am GMT
Well, the answer is no.

Almost nobody is bilingual in other languages, only people in really bilingual areas or people that live in the border of a country.

For example, a lot of people can write in English but they speak it very bad.

Besides, a lot of people don't understand a song in English, only some words or the refrain (chorus).

So, if we are strict, only 500 million speak English in the world (mother tongue speakers + bilingual people or similar level).

You can say the same with all other languages.

It is very difficult to know the speakers of Modern Standard Arabic in the world, or English/French in Africa.

How many people speak really well Russian in Uzbekistan? Or Spanish in Paraguay? or Mandarin in Hong-Kong?
Guest   Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:02 am GMT
<<If this were devised for every language, then it would mean that people know whether or not they can really speak it. There would be 2 results; pass and fail. Nothing else.>>

Тhat's ludicrous for the simple reason that there IS something else. There are infinitely many degrees of knowing a language, so to lump all knowledge into 2 buckets is preposterous and counter-productive.

For example, many people who need English for their work are highly proficient in their specialisation (say, a technical scientist), yet wouldn't understand a rap song if their life depended on it. Do they know the language?

Or the contrary case, someone who speaks the language on an everyday basis but uses it only in everyday situations (say, an immigrant child speaking to parents), and is abysmal when it comes to using the language in a formal manner.

Therefore, people ought to be judged by what their intentions are. If the scientist is applying for a job as a prisoner interviewer and puts down that he speaks English he will be lying because there is no way he'll know the slang and the like required to talk to uneducated criminals, but he could very well put it down if he's applying for a job at a science laboratory. The immigrant child similarly would be lying if he put his language on his CV if the position he's applying for were as an editor for a newspaper in that language which requires excellent grammar skills.
Guest   Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:36 pm GMT
Not everyone caught in a prison is a criminal, and not every criminal is uneducated.
Guest   Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:55 pm GMT
Most of the criminals live well salaried lives as politicians, judges, officials, priests etc.
Q.E.D.   Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:25 pm GMT
There is everyday spoken language and there is the academic language. You'll need both of them : when you shop at local grocery store and you feel like brighten the cashier's day a bit by chatting about latest celebrities gossips. You also need it to read a paper/book to improve your professional skills or simply to enjoy a good novel.
One needs to manage both language styles well above the basic level to be able to understand and to be part of the adoptive culture.
You are an alien in the adoptive culture if you live in a Japanese town/China town/Spanish town and refuse to understand the cultural and moral values by avoiding speaking the native language.
As the neurophysicits say, the brain is like a muscle, if you don't use it you loose it.

Cheers,
Q.E.D.
Guest   Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm GMT
Don't care what the neurophysicits say, they've already lost their brains.
Xie   Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:53 am GMT
>>For example, a lot of people can write in English but they speak it very bad.

Me too. But I also write very fluent Chinese and often make mistakes here and there. First, I often mix up words. Second, I often pronounce one syllable out of 2/300 wrongly. Third, I make a lot of mistakes with word order, measure words... even though I'm still a perfect native speaker (and I'm also being highly educated). Does that mean my Chinese sucks?

>>or Mandarin in Hong-Kong?

And I listen to it much better than I speak, since, yes, I'm in a homogeneous society and I don't normally speak to an outsider... so it's rare for me to speak other languages.

>>You are an alien in the adoptive culture if you live in a Japanese town/China town/Spanish town and refuse to understand the cultural and moral values by avoiding speaking the native language.

That has been one of my most frequent rants so far.
K. T.   Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:04 am GMT
"There are infinitely many degrees of knowing a language." Agree.
Raven   Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:47 pm GMT
Well, I went to primary school in English in the US and then we moved to Canada. I am currently finishing my high school in French. That's how somebody becomes perfectly bilingual. I am actually in the French educational system with French oral, writing and comprehension classes. And of course, there are English classes. There might not be any real bilingual people for you but in Quebec almost everybody is bilingual. There are tons of language laws to protect French like some kind of endangered animal. Most people that speak English at home get loop-holed into the French system and end up being bilingual whether they wanted it or not.
Guest   Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:40 am GMT
You mean to say that you're currently in FRENCH IMMERSION CLASS, Raven?