On learning grammar by reading...

Michael   Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:12 am GMT
So I have been trying to apply the Antimoon method in my endeavor to learn français. I am a student here in Paris so it offers an immersion environment (except for the fact that many of my friends are American :-( )
and I am also taking intensive french classes. While I feel that my french is improving, especially since it had been 4 years since I took any sort of French, I feel that it is a daunting task to learn the language.

I certainly feel that the endless conjugation and grammar exercises I do in class don't help much so I went to buy some french books and try to read like Antimoon says one should do. While I just started a few days ago, that also seems daunting! I can see how it would help with vocabulary--I underline words I don't understand and look them up...but how can I really learn grammar and how tenses are used by just reading them if I don't get them? At what point am I supposed to just get it? Should I just expect that if I see the plus-que-parfait a million times even if it doesn't quite click while I'm reading and have to always think about it for a second to get it, that it will just eventually click? I almost feel like I need to see a conjugation chart of some sort if I don't understand a verb for example the same way I look in a dictionary for a word I don't understand....doesn't that defeat the purpose of the Antimoon method when it comes to grammar?

I guess my main point is that I want to be able to speak french naturally without having to think in English first and I'm not sure that by reading stuff...which I still seem to have to think in English after reading it...is going to help much?

At what point will I stop thinking in English and stop translating stuff? It seems so very hard to do....
Guest   Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:22 am GMT
Well, for one thing, you have to keep at it. Try re-reading the same sentences repeatedly until you don't have to think in English about the meaning anymore, for instance.
Guest   Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:40 am GMT
You'll stop thinking in English first when you're fluent and don't need to translate it anymore, it becomes an automatic thing. But it's good you're in France, because it'll happen much faster (especially if the people you hang out with and study always speak in French, which seems not to be the case though =/ ). I think that ability comes more from listening than from reading, though while reading you can take your pace and don't miss some words.

Anyway, from my experience it's best to study grammar, but for verbs, perhaps you should just worry with the main 3, Past, Present and Future for now. And start using those in conversation, soon enough you'll get what are the most used verbs you really need to know, when to use them, etc.
K. T.   Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:03 pm GMT
I think that both guests offered very good suggestions. In my experience, I just start thinking in the new language after enough exposure. It's a pleasant surprise. "Whoa! I was thinking in ___________!"
Michael   Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:05 pm GMT
Thanks for the replies...I guess I have to stay motivated! I definitely see improvement...but I frankly feel like like I just keep translating stuff in my head and it's just unavoidable. I want to be able to speak without thinking and I want to know if really just reading enough and listening to enough tv or radio etc...will eventually get me there without endlessly memorizing grammar concepts....

I come across so many English-as-a-second-language-speakers all the time and I am amazed at how at easy they are with a second language they didn't learn as kids....I want to be like them!
K. T.   Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:45 am GMT
Okay,

Here are some methods. Read or listen to the language right before you go to bed. Personally, I don't like to do this with certain languages, but this WILL work on some people and you may dream in the language, or at least the words will start working on your mind.

Stuart Jay Raj supposedly reads a foreign dictionary before he goes to bed and he notes that words he didn't notice while awake, show up in his sleep. This has happened to me as well. Raj is a multililingual Australian guy who lives in Thailand.

Make a big effort to listen. Listen while you do something (like dress), also listen to the language while you are relaxed and comfortable and don't stress if you miss a word. If, however you remember the word and it bothers you, look it up.

Shadow sentences. Read them aloud.

It's a great thing when the language kicks in and you start thinking naturally in the language.
Guest   Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:41 pm GMT
I think reading a language will definitely teach you its grammar, but you need to know all the major points before you start. For example, I took a year of Latin in university and picked up the more advanced grammar while reading -- I would see an unfamiliar form but since I already knew all the tenses, moods, conjugations, declensions, etc., I would be able to figure out the meaning. I've had similar experiences with French.

But if I hadn't had the prior foundational knowledge, I would certainly have been lost.
Guest   Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:42 pm GMT
^^ I wanted to add that it would be difficult to learn grammar by listening since you only have a moment to process things you hear before a native speaker is miles away.