RP vs Stand.Italian

Guest   Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:28 am GMT
what do you think?

''Finally, there is a further problem which undermines sound-symbol correspondences in Italian. The relative stability and uniformity of the written norm is not matched by a homogeneous spoken norm, which is in fact marked by strong regional variation, even among educated speakers. As the Italian linguist Canepari (1983) pointed out, the Florentine model on which Standard Italian was based failed to extend to the rest of the peninsula because of the strong presence of competing dialects. At present there is no standard pronunciation of Italian equivalent to RP in Standard British English, but instead many regional standards whose pronunciation is strongly influenced by dialects. The strongest unifying force, beside the mass media, is the homogeneous orthography, and, as linguists have repeatedly pointed out, the recommended pronunciation for foreign learners is the one based on the spelling. The allophonic contrasts between {e, ɛ}, {o, ɔ}, and {s, z} are etymologically motivated (eg, pesca /ˈpeska/ [=peach] from Latin pĕrsicum, contrasting with pesca /ˈpɛska/ [=fishing] from Latin piscarī), being used in Tuscany (the Florentine region), but nowhere else in Italy.

The tendency to unify regional pronunciations on the basis of a regular spelling system in Italian may be seen as the exact opposite of the historical development of English, where the unified pronunciation model of RP was established against a historical, non-phonetic orthography, which does not provide a pronunciation model encouraging convergence of regional accents.''
source: http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j20/italian.php

Is the English way more efficient?
Guest   Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:13 am GMT
Horses for courses an' all that.
Uriel   Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:04 am GMT
We spend years and years memorizing word spellings as kids, and still manage to screw them up all the time as adults. How is that efficient? The fact that other dialects of English pronounce the same words differently and still don't come any closer to mimicking the spelling is a small comfort, I guess.... but then we go and mess that up by taking words that are pronounced the same in various dialects and spelling them differently! ;)
posterzero   Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:10 am GMT
Sounds Ok.
Thinker   Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:02 pm GMT
<<At present there is no standard pronunciation of Italian equivalent to RP in Standard British English, but instead many regional standards whose pronunciation is strongly influenced by dialects.>>

As an Italian, I strongly disagree. We do have a common pronunciation. It's the one you can listen to on the telly, especially that of newsreaders. It's also the one used in school (at least, were I live).
However, it's true that in some parts of Italy Italian is somewhat mixed with regional dialects, and this affects not only pronunciation, but also (and especially) syntax and vocabulary.
My relatives in Apulia would say "scatolo", which makes me cringe (it's "scatola" = box), or would turn intransitive verbs into transitive ones ("scendi lo scatolo", which should be "porta giù la scatola" = take the box down, where "scendere" is intransitive and "portare" is transitive). Such differences and regionalisms are much more important than small differences in pronunciation, because they are judged as incorrect in standard Italian, although widely used in some areas.

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<<The allophonic contrasts between {e, ɛ}, {o, ɔ}, and {s, z} are etymologically motivated (eg, pesca /ˈpeska/ [=peach] from Latin pĕrsicum, contrasting with pesca /ˈpɛska/ [=fishing] from Latin piscarī), being used in Tuscany (the Florentine region), but nowhere else in Italy.>>

True, but who cares? Just think of it as simplification in pronunciation. Take Tuscany out, and all the rest of Italy has only five vowels and five vowels sounds: a, e, i, o, u. Period.
Do we need to differentiate /e/ from /ɛ/, or /o/ from /ɔ/? Not really, because context makes it clear if it's "pèsca" or "pésca", "bòtte" or "bótte".

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<<Is the English way more efficient? >>

I don't know. It's different, and that's all to me. :-)
Guest   Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:23 pm GMT
Because of different/wrong pronunciations in the North, Italians from the North write in the wrong way: perchè, ventitrè.

The correct spelling is perché, ventitré (é indicates a closed pronunciation).
Northern people are bad pronouncers and therefore bad spellers
Guest   Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:25 pm GMT
-Take Tuscany out, and all the rest of Italy has only five vowels and five vowels sounds: a, e, i, o, u. Period. -

You don't know nothing, zip, nada about Italian language.
The whole central Italy (Tuscany, Lazio, Umbria, Marche) has 7 vowels.
It is not only Tuscany. All people from Umbria, Lazio and Marché pronounce all 7 vowels the way dictionaries (like Zanichelli) indicate. These people have perfect/standard vowels.
Thinker   Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:50 pm GMT
<<You don't know nothing, zip, nada about Italian language.
The whole central Italy (Tuscany, Lazio, Umbria, Marche) ... >>

Not true. I happen to know quite a few people from the Frusinate (in Lazio) and they generally do not differentiate 'é' from 'è', and 'ò' from 'ó'.

I have to admit I was generalizing too much when I wrote "Take Tuscany out" (that difference is retained also in some areas in Southern Italy, FYI) ... but that's true for you, too! ;-)
Guest   Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:26 pm GMT
People from Rome distinguish between é and è, and ó and ò,
everyone from garbage cleaner to professors (not to mention famous singers from Rome which have impeccable pronunciation, like Giorgia, Syria, Zero Assoluto or Elvis Ramazotti, Jessica Morlacchi or Ambra Angiolini; unlike accented singers from Milan, like Paola and Chiara)
Guest   Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:39 pm GMT
Elvis Ramazzoti?
Thinker   Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:47 pm GMT
<<...not to mention famous singers from Rome which have impeccable pronunciation, like Giorgia, Syria, Zero Assoluto or Elvis Ramazotti, Jessica Morlacchi or Ambra Angiolini>>

I know nothing about Jessica Morlacchi, but I'd never ever call "impeccable pronunciation" that of Giorgia, Ambra, Syria or Eros.
All of them have strong and not always pleasant accents when they're speaking. While singing their pronunciation is completely different, though.

<<unlike accented singers from Milan, like Paola and Chiara>>

Gosh! Are they 'singers'? Somebody should have told me!!!