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Catalonia - Catalunya
Greg,
Je ne veux dire aucune offense mais vous devez comprendre que je ne soigne pas d'<<exactitude politique>>. En fait, je suis assez vieux pour me souvenir quand Inuit était l'esquimau, le Saracen était le Musulman, Hô Chi Minh Ville était Saigon et oui, même lorsque on a appelé Occitan "Le Provençal." Je suis un peu conservateur.
Greg,
I mean no offense but you must understand that I am not into "political correctnes." In fact, I'm old enough to remember when Inuit was Eskimo, Moslem was Muslim, Hô Chi Minh City was Saigon and yes, even when Occitan was called Provencal. I have a consevative streak in me.
PP to appeal to Constitutional Court on Catalan statute
PP spokesman Eduardo Zaplana confirmed yesterday that the party would appeal to the Constitutional Court against "the legal and democratic fraud" that allowing the proposed new Catalan statute of autonomy to be considered by Parliament would mean. If Parliament should pass the statute, the PP will then appeal its constitutionality. Zaplana stressed that the new statute was one step more "toward the ambush of the 1978 constitution," as the PP's appeal against Parliament's refusal to consider the opinions of the Council of State and the Judicial Council was rejected. The PP considers that the reformed Catalan statute is a way to change the Spanish constitution without the proper process. Zaplana said ironically that those organs "must be just anecdotal," and said that even the report by the Socialist Party's committee of judicial experts says the statute is unconstitutional. Zaplana reiterated that the majority of the Spanish citizens are being prohibited from expressing themselves on something that affects them directly. He said, "There are very important changes in our country that are no longer in the hands of the Spanish people, but in the hands of a few politicians. That's true. A few politicians decide for all Spaniards about questions that affect them." Zaplana also criticized the "manifest incoherence" of the PSOE in everything related to the Catalan statute, and asked the Socialists why they are going to vote in favor of admitting the statute to parliamentary consideration on November 2, if "the PSOE voted negatively on the Ibarretxe Plan, which was just as unconstitutional." The PP has prepared a statement listing 25 essential similarities between the Catalan statute and the Ibarretxe Plan, most of them unconstitutional, "though there are a lot more," said Zaplana.
Majority of Spaniards oppose Catalan statute, think Zapatero wrong
More than 65% of Spaniards oppose defining Catalonia as a nation in the text of the new Catalan regional statute of autonomy, according to surveys published in the newspapers El Mundo, El País, and La Razón. More than 53% agreed that the new statute might have consequences for the unity of Spain. Catalan separatist (ERC) leader Carod Rovira yesterday called on liberal intellectuals and politicians in Madrid "to come out and call for what we call for, respect for Catalonia," during the process of the Catalan statute through the Congress.
Mundo's survey said that 57% of Spaniards oppose the text passed by the Catalan parliament, and that a 68%-23% majority of them oppose the statute's definition of Catalonia as a nation. 55% of those surveys think Zapatero made an error by fostering the statute, and 53% reject giving the Catalan regional government powers that had previously belonged to the central government. 51% would support changing the election law to decrease regional nationalist power, 58% think the new statute "puts the unity of Spain at risk," and 67% believe the statute lacks solidarity with the rest of Spain.
El País reported that 69% of those surveyed are against "defining Catalonia as a state within Spain," and that 53% believe that the new statute "endangers the unity of Spain." 53% also believe that the statute lacks solidarity with other parts of Spain. 79% of Spaniards believe that the statute must obey the Spanish constitution. The majority of the Spanish autonomous regions governed by the Socialist party oppose the statute.
La Razón's survey said that 69% do not agree with recognizing Catalonia as a nation, 59% believe that the statute "may have repercussions in the structure of the central government," and 62% believe that it does not show solidarity with other regions.
l'occitan n'est pas une variété du provençal, l'occitan est un terme récent. Le provençal fait aprti du "groupe" des langues occitanes, car il n'y a pas un occitan mais des langues occitanes, tels l'auvergnat du nord, celui du sud, le gascon, le provençal...
Bein entendu toutes ces langues ontune origine commune et appartiennent aux langues d'Oc. Le provençal en est une variété, mais le terme provençal est encore flou, car le provençal parlé à Nîmes et celui parlé autrefois à Nice, ou encore à Menton ne sont pas identiques, malgré les similitudes, on note aussi des différences. Ces différences qui font qu'un nîmois avait bien plus de facilité à comprendre un gar de la Lozère ou de la Haute Loire (midi de l'Auvergne) qu'un gars de Nice ou Menton.
L'occitan regroupe une aire linguistique : langues dites d'Oc.
All languages have strong dialectal differences even French. What about Walloon, Picard or Normand, just to name a few quite different dialects? Even the French spoken by southerners who use to speak Occitan dialects is quite different to Standard French. Could we, therefore, speak of French languages? We should if we were to follow the arguments. Why must we all read in French in a thread about Occitania and in an English-language forum? What makes French so special? Should we also write in German, Italian or others? Perhaps in a thread about France and its interests although France seems to think she istill is a world power.
It is true that Standard French is making quite a few of these dialects disappear specially amongst the young. Standard French is wiping out the French languages (within French itself to start with). The same thing would happen if a form of Standard Occitan was taught in schools but they hardly have the right to their own local varieties. The differences between the historic Toulouse dialect and Nice are much slighter, from a linguistic point of view, than between Paris and the Walloon dialects in Belgium or Franco Provençal still spoken in villages around Lyon and Geneva (by the older generation, of course!)
It is, therefore, a political issue. The reason behind all this is to make people think that there isn't an Occitan but different Occitans, therefore it is another way of naming them "patois", the term used in France to name non-languages or worthless dialectal forms from a wide communication point of view. The only language would be French, the only language with a right to a "National" standard.
Regarding the guy posting all the trash about the Catalan people (forgetting the nice "beautiful" history of Spanish (Castilian based) nationalism there is only one word: quite sickening and disgusting. H, of course, doesn't do the translating. You've only got to compare his sentences elsewhere.
The Catalan are, without any doubt, the most European and advanced of the peoples and cultures of Spain. About 40% of the Spanish economy is produced in Catalonia alone and that is what is behind all this. CAtalans have always had an International attitude and it is the area in Spain where you'll find more multilingual people (including Catalan, Spanish, English and quite often French, German, Italian or other languages. That doesn't make them different egardless if they decide to continue within Spain (many of them do and are federalists) or as as independent state. And now, you can carry on with your messages which define themselves quite well.
All the messages are based on the campaing of the Spanish conservative and highly nationalistic rightist and very often, neo-franquist, party. They've got a lot to hide I can assure you of that. They prefere to promote hate between the different parts of Spain just to get more votes. Who are the dangerous ones?
WOULD THE MODERATOR PLEASE STOP THIS POLITICAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST CATALONIA ON THIS FORUM
"Majority of Spaniards oppose Catalan statute, think Zapatero wrong"
Well the people primarily concerned are the Catalans... What do THEY think about the Catalan statute?
"the legal and democratic fraud"
I suppose a majority of Catalans want this statute for catalunya. If so, exactly how is it a "democratic fraud" to give the people what they want?
"As is well known, the sovereign Constitution, which Catalan politicians have taken to calling the “reform project of Catalonia’s Autonomy Statute,” has 218 articles, longer than the North Korean Constitution, with only 166."
What a **brilliant** argumentation! How about this one: Hitler used to shave everyday and so do most men. That must mean most men are nazi.
"After recovering from the fright and facing up to all the trouble and headaches of having your wallet stolen, you have to head to the Police Station to report the crime. That is when you need to be really careful. The odyssey begins here."
Oh my god! No national Spanish flags, no pictures of Juan Carlos, and the police officiers will have to codeswitch from Catalan to Castillan in order to talk to you? That's terrible. Those are no doubt the most crucials matters when someone's just stolen your wallet. Puh-leaze!
ERC answers Cope Radio manifesto with attack on headquarters
Joan Puig, the Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC) deputy who last summer organized an attack on editor Pedro J. Ramirez's swimming pool, accompanied by fellow ERC deputy Joan Tarda, yesterday supervised an attack on the Cope Radio headquarters in Madrid. Both deputies observed as a group of masked Catalan separatists chained themselves to the building's front door, while insulting the people arriving to sign Cope Radio's petition to the EU. The media were conveniently alerted in order to catch the moment.
Everything was perfectly coordinated. Numerous media outlets, many from Catalonia, began to film as a group of radicals, identified with ERC youth group stickers, chained themselves to the front door of Cope headquarters. They were wearing yellow smocks, with masks and a banner insulting Cope Radio and calling for it to be closed down. Among the journalists, supervising everything that happened, were Joan Puig and Joan Tarda.
The radicals' goal was to provoke the many people who at that moment were signing the petition addressed to the European Parliament demanding the halt of the Catalan regional government's "political operation," with the complicity of the Zapatero administration, to take away Cope Radio's frequencies in Catalonia, The radicals called the persons trying to enter the Cope building "fascists." Once the chains holding them to the front of the building were cut, the ERC militants left, in the middle of indignation and booing by the spectators, in an identifiable car. The National Police identified the five ERC radicals.
A Cope Radio spokesman said, "This is a clear strategy of provocation that is part of the campaign of harassment of this media outlet." He recalled that Cope Radio's criticisms of the new Catalan regional statute "are not criticisms of either Catalonia or the Catalans," while adding that the network supports the constitution and freedom of expression, and saying, "They won't silence us."
Euro-MP Luis Herrero: ERC has right to speak but not to silence Cope Radio
People's Party (PP) Euro-MP Luis Herrero, the originator of the petition in favor of Cope Radio, said yesterday that the members of ERC who chained themselves to Cope Radio's building have the right to demonstrate, but not to "silence the voice of the network or impede its listeners or staff from giving their opinion. I think they have every right in the world to chain themselves up because I defend the freedom of expression. How can I not defend their chaining themselves up or carrying the banners they want to? But they say they do not want to foment anger and hatred, but what they're trying to do is silence a voice. That makes no sense from my point of view. What's the deal, they have the right to demonstrate, but they want to stop Cope Radio's listeners from giving their opinion? That's what shocks me."
The new Statute starts out affirming Catalonia is a nation, something most Catalans do not believe. Stunned by the enormous gap between political power and the society it supposedly represents, between the Matrix and the real world, we did not notice the trick: there is no such gap because, deep down, the establishment does not consider Catalan anyone who does not believe in a Catalan nation. Or, at best, it considers that person a wayward Catalan, one it needs to work on, integrate, change, program, a potential Catalan, a second class Catalan.
This decision to finally put the roof on the former regional governor Jordi Pujol’s national construct is what keeps them from blushing when certain organizations run ads in the press energetically demanding the Statute. Given the solid principle of “quien paga, manda” (whoever pays makes the decisions), the campaign really boils down to Catalan governor Pasqual Maragall demanding something from himself: what pretentious monologues this guy needs to keep himself going!
Supposedly a Statute of Autonomy is a legal framework allowing any government, regardless of its politics, to apply its policies. Ergo, this is not a Statute. This is a two mountain scam –the new born Statute will end up taking us all to the cleaners. After 19 months of work, the Popular Party of Catalonia (PPC) calculated that the final text responds to 90% of ERC’s positions, a party representing only 16% of the Catalan and 2.5% of the Spanish electorates, an interesting bit of data if we keep in mind this Statute, racing down from Montjuic and Tibidabo, implies a constitutional reform so severe it would alter the entire political system created near the end of the 1970s, the system that has brought Spain a prosperity and political stability unimaginable when it was established.
One important thing is that country people in Catalonia are pretty much the same as country people anywhere else in northeastern and north central Spain, as in Aragon or Old Castile or Navarra. They just speak a different language, but they think in similar ways--except nationalistically--and they do similar things and live in a similar way. The food is a little different, OK, but that's about it. They're more like one another than either is like the country people of Andalusia to the south or the country people of France to the north. It's the city people, the "we've gotta-prove-we're more-Catalan-than-you" folks, who seize on minor or even invented regional customs (dancing sardanas, building human towers, holding correfocs) and regional foods (escudella i carn d'olla, tomato bread, all i oli, calçots) and declare them the heart and soul of Catalanity. Country people blow all that stuff off (except for the food) and watch the Barça and Spanish TV variety shows while listening to Spanish and international pop music.
It was really hard for me to adjust from the warm greetings and friendly smiles in Michigan, to the cold stares on the streets of Barcelona. I have resorted to pretending that there is no one around me in the Metro. At times when I am “greeted”, it is what I coined as machismo-related verbal harassment: “Ay, maca, ay, xinesa…” You don’t see me going around yelling “ay, maco, ay, llatí” to the next guy I see. Perhaps the “Ajuntament” ought to start designing one of those snazzy communiqué entitled “Unlocking the codes of stereotypes: Education on diversity.” It’s time to realize that not all Asian-looking girls are “tancada”, demure, or owns a Euro-shop. But before that happens, I will continue going around town breaking the ice with my “Bon dias” to the next “senyora” or “senyor” I see. Mind you, it’s been an effective one. At least half of the time I get a smile laced with a hint of surprise, and a slurred “Bon dia” in reply.
Well you see, it’s been seven months since that little piece was written, and guess what, my perspective has changed! But change an immense one it became. So the new me goes into the metro nonchalantly every morning with a carefree stride, books held on my side and armed with the ubiquitous urbanite accessory – the ipod shuffle. So gone were the “gosh where should I look stance”. I guess I just got used to the fact that Barcelona, like all metropolises, is endowed with the big-city syndrome i.e. mind your own business. No, I’m not going to coin it as a little cold or unfriendly, this simply is a different way of life. It’s not fair to compare an apple with an orange.
And the change of attitude has given me little surprises. I’ve noticed lately that more people smile if I try to be nice. But of course be prepared with nasty looks especially if you look super-duper foreign, like me (I’m of Chinese-Malaysian descent). To fend that, almost like self-defense, I have been experimenting with something like smiling at someone and looking away immediately to avoid disappointments. This strategy does me a lot of wonder because I got tired of doing as the Romans do -- sulking and displaying a face the catalans call “ dolenta llet ”, which means sour milk.
Alright, and now with the verbal comments thrown at the female species, what catalan call “floreta”, which my dictionary translates loosely as a flirtatious compliment. Believe it or not I got used to it. If I get a piropo, I’ll say ‘hola’, smile, or sometimes ‘grazies’. Taking it as a compliment actually makes you feel good. Forget about them verbally harassing you. I think this non-conventional reaction actually takes them aback. Maybe it’ll make them stop giving “piropos”.
CATALAN RACISM
In Catalan:
A Barcelona fa molt hortera parlar espanyol, jo només el parlo amb la minyona i amb alguns empleats. És de pobres i d'horteres, d'analfabets i de gent de poc nivell parlar un idioma que fa aquest soroll tan espantós per pronunciar la jota. Aquests que no parlen en català sovint tampoc no saben anglès, ni francès, ni qui és monsieur Paccaud. Però no només a Catalunya l'espanyol és un símptoma de classe baixa. L'amic Riera em facilita aquestes dades de l'ONU del 2002. Renda per càpita de Noruega, 36.600 dòlars; Dinamarca, 30.940; Islàndia, 29.750. Tots tres països riquíssims, amb economies internacionalitzades i llengües més petites que la nostra però que les parlen sense complex.
La mitjana dels 13 principals països americans que tenen l'espanyol com a llengua, comptat des de l'Argentina, Xile i Mèxic fins a Nicaragua, Hondures i l'Equador, és de 6.209 atrotinats dòlars de renda per càpita.
In Spanish:
En Barcelona queda muy hortera hablar en español, yo solo lo hablo con la criada y con algunos empleados. Es de pobres y de horteras, de analfabetos y de gente de poco nivel hablar un idioma que hace un ruido tan espantoso para pronunciar la jota.
Estos que no hablan catalán, a menudo tampoco saben inglés, ni francés, ni quién es monsieur Paccaud. Pero no solo en Cataluña el español es un síntoma de clase baja. El amigo Riera me facilita estos datos de la ONU del 2002.
Renta per cápita de Noruega, 36.600 dólares; Dinamarca, 30940; Islandia, 29.750. Tres países riquísimos, con economías internacionalizadas y lenguas más pequeñas que la nuestra pero que las hablan sin complejos. Contra esta absurda creencia de que el catalán nos cierra puertas, estos datos sobradamente elocuentes de si sirve o no sirve una lengua minoritaria.
En cambio en el maravilloso mundo hispánico la pobreza es el único dato. La media de los 13 principales países americanos que tienen el español como lengua, desde Argentina, Chile y Méjico hasta Nicaragua, Honduras y Ecuador, es de 6.209 maltrechos, dólares de renta per cápita.
Source: Newspaper of Catalonia
troubadour : entièrement d'accord avec toi. Je ne connais pas (bien) les langues d'Oc mais es-tu d'accord pour dire que la néolangue qu'on appelle « occitan » est en fait une koinè relativement récente et essentiellement reconstruite avec une phonologie et une graphie languedociennes (ni auvergnate, ni gasconne, ni provençale etc) ?
About Occitans and Catalo : chacun est libre d'utiliser la langue qui lui plaît et tu peux tout à fait t'exprimer en langue d'Oc si tu le souhaites. D'autres l'on fait avant toi et ça n'a jamais posé de problème. D'autre part tu es le bienvenu sur http://www.langcafe.net/index.php?f=18&sid=51e8fc0fe49498e0ed36aa19f5cf1452 car on a grand besoin de gens qui connaissent bien les langues d'Oc. À très bientôt j'espère !
About Occitans and Catalo : « Toutes les langues, français compris, présentent des variations dialectales. Quid du wallon, du picard et du normand pour ne citer qu'eux ? »
Le wallon, le picard et les normands ne sont pas des dialectes du français. Ce sont des langues qui, au même titre que le français, appartiennent au vaste ensemble d'Oïl, un continuum comprenant des langues, des dialectes, des supradialectes etc. C'est comme si tu disais que le languedocien, le gascon, l'auvargnat et le vivaro-alpin étaient des dialectes de l'occitan (une koinè de création récente surtout basée sur le languedocien). Non, l'occitan, le languedocien, le gascon, l'auvargnat et le vivaro-alpin sont des langues appartenant à la grande famille des langues d'Oc.
Néanmoins il existe des dialectes français. Le français international qui sert de pseudo-norme est un dialecte ; le parisien est un dialecte français ; le québécois est un dialecte français ; le français tel qu'il est parlé à Marseille est un dialecte français. Pour une langue qui dispose d'une base de locuteurs importante ou de normes (orales ou écrites) il n'est pas facile d'établir la frontière entre dialecte, façon de parler ou parlure.
About Occitans and Catalo : « Même le français parlé par les méridionaux qui parlaient des dialectes occitan est très différent du français standard. »
Il n'existe pas une façon unique de parler le français dans le midi : il suffit de voyager de Nice à Bordeaux via Marseille et Toulouse pour s'en rendre compte. Mais je ne comprends pas ta remarque : parlais-tu de méridionaux qui parlaient une langue d'Oc avant de passer au français ou de méridionaux francophones maternels ?
About Occitans and Catalo : « Pourquoi devons-nous tous lire une discussion sur l'Occitanie en français dans un forum anglophone. »
Parce que dans la section internationale de ce forum tu peux utiliser la langue de ton choix quel que soit le sujet. D'autre part, regarde bien le titre de cette discussion : « Catalonia - Catalunya » — il ne s'agit donc pas d'une discusson sur l'Occitanie, mais sur la Catalogne.
Pour terminer, tu te trompes lourdement si tu penses que distinguer l'occitan des langues d'Oc revient à considérer la famille d'Oc comme un ensemble purement dialectal. Tu es le seul à avoir avancé cette notion jusqu'ici. Pour ma part je pense que les langues d'Oc sont des langues — ni des patois ni des dialectes — et que l'occitan est une langue d'Oc plus récente que les autres.
De la même manière, le picard, le wallon, les normands, le champenois etc ne sont nullement des dialectes français, mais des langues d'Oïl.
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