What does "native language" mean to you?
Taiwanese is only a political name, not linguistic name. Before 1980, its original name is "Xiamen Hua" which means the dialect of Xiamen. Xiamen Hua is also the Minnan dialect.
I'm Taiwanese and I ever travelled and lived in Xiamen City,Fujian Province and I have found out the language which Taiwan and Xiamen ppl speak is the same. If there is a difference, the difference will be smaller than the difference between American English and British English. Can American English now be called "Americanish"?
the fucking pro-Taiwan independence politicians who don't have knowledge of linguistics creates this term"Taiwanese". Now it's the time to restore the name to "Xiamen Hua".
In English, the term that I am familiar with is "Min Nan" rather than "Xiamen Hua", but yes, I get the point you are making perfectly well there (and was not trying to debate such - rather, it was that the term "Taiwanese" had been used earlier in the thread so I was using that term as it had already been referred to).
> How about Taiwanese?
Taiwanese ppl usually write and read Mandarin,
but only speak Taiwanese.
So does it mean that all Taiwanese ppl's mother tongue is Mandarin?
1. "Taiwanese ppl usually write and read Mandarin (Written Mandarin),
but only speak Taiwanese (Spoken Taiwanese)."
Written Mandarin is as the Written Language of all peoples in Taiwan. (Official)
Spoken Taiwanese is as the Spoken Language of more peoples in Taiwan. (Unofficial)
2. "So does it mean that all Taiwanese ppl's mother tongue is Mandarin?"
The Peoples of Taiwan are belong to many different ethnicities (Hakka, Holo, Hsiang, Wu, Mandarin etc.) and nationalities (Formosan Speaking Peoples). So their Mother Tongue (Spoken Language) or First Language (Spoken and Written Language) are very different. Every person of Taiwan can speak several different languages (multilingual) such as Mr. Little Chiang, Mr. Ah Bien and Mr. Ah Jiou.
Mr. Little Chiang
his native language is Wunese
mother tongue is Wunese
second language is Mandarin
third language is Russian
Mr. Ah Bian
his native language is Hakkanese
mother tongue is Taiwanese
second language is Mandarin
third language is English
Mr. Ah Jeou
his native language is Hsiang
mother tongue is Mandarin
second language is English
third language may be Latin
Travis Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:40 pm GMT
<<The average person honestly knows nothing about linguistics, and what may happen to be popularly thought about languages has practically no bearing upon actual linguistic matters. They may think of such as being a "dialect" of Chinese, but that really means nothing in this regard. >>
The average person honestly knows nothing about political science, can we say what may happen to be popularly thought about politics has practically no bearing upon actual political matters?
Linguistic matters, unlike quantum physics matters, can be very familiar to every one of us!
<<Of course, mind you that a lot of this has to do with a particular word fāngyán which is generally translated in English to "dialect" but which really has a meaning in English more akin to "regional language". It is broadly applied in Chinese languages to just about anything which "shares a writing system with something else">>
If you discuss "dialect" in the Chinese context, why use "Chinese languageS" ?
<<whereas the term "dialect" in English strongly implies that at least some degree of mutual intelligibility is present (even when it really isn't). Hence while Chinese languages are very broadly referred to as fāngyán by Chinese people, the translation in English of them being "dialects" really just does not fit (as the distance between them is more akin to that between the Romance languages than that between, say, dialects of English or even German). >>
At the end of the day, it seems that, in your view to the split opinions above regarding Cantonese's status, it is all about translation problems between fāngyán in Chinese and dialect in English, isn't it?
If so, you just keep your opinion and I keep mine.
Guest Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:32 am GMT
<<Taiwanese is only a political name, not linguistic name. Before 1980, its original name is "Xiamen Hua" which means the dialect of Xiamen. Xiamen Hua is also the Minnan dialect.
I'm Taiwanese and I ever travelled and lived in Xiamen City,Fujian Province and I have found out the language which Taiwan and Xiamen ppl speak is the same. If there is a difference, the difference will be smaller than the difference between American English and British English. Can American English now be called "Americanish"?
the fucking pro-Taiwan independence politicians who don't have knowledge of linguistics creates this term"Taiwanese". Now it's the time to restore the name to "Xiamen Hua". >>
I agree with you.
“台语” (Taiwanese) is very much a recent faricated thing.
The local Taiwan authorities under the rule of Li Denghui and Chen Shuibian have been trying hard to make Taiwan and Taiwanese de-Chinese, haven't they?
Here, language issues have been used to serve political ends so nakedly that even an average person knows the trick there.
>>If you discuss "dialect" in the Chinese context, why use "Chinese languageS" ?<<
Because I am writing in English here and not Mandarin, and the English word "language" is better suited to describing the Sinitic language varieties (to speak very neutrally on the matter) and their interrelationships than the English word "dialect".
<<Because I am writing in English here and not Mandarin, and the English word "language" is better suited to describing the Sinitic language varieties (to speak very neutrally on the matter) and their interrelationships than the English word "dialect". >>
So we have different criteria for judging dialects and languages in different languages and cultures! LOL
"Guest Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:01 pm GMT
1. "Taiwanese ppl usually write and read Mandarin (Written Mandarin),
but only speak Taiwanese (Spoken Taiwanese)."
Written Mandarin is as the Written Language of all peoples in Taiwan. (Official)
Spoken Taiwanese is as the Spoken Language of more peoples in Taiwan. (Unofficial) "
As a Taiwanese, I must say not all Taiwanese people speak Minnan dialect(Taiwanese is not a political term), but all people of Taiwan speak Mandarin especially for the young generation who speak Mandarin fluently.
Guest Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:22 pm GMT
"Guest Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:01 pm GMT
1. "Taiwanese ppl usually write and read Mandarin (Written Mandarin),
but only speak Taiwanese (Spoken Taiwanese)."
Written Mandarin is as the Written Language of all peoples in Taiwan. (Official)
Spoken Taiwanese is as the Spoken Language of more peoples in Taiwan. (Unofficial) "
Correct: Taiwanese is a political term
As a Taiwanese, I must say not all Taiwanese people speak Minnan dialect(Taiwanese is a political term), but all people of Taiwan speak Mandarin especially for the young generation who speak Mandarin fluently.
Sorry, the Guest above is me
"Guest Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:01 pm GMT
The Peoples of Taiwan are belong to many different ethnicities (Hakka, Holo, Hsiang, Wu, Mandarin etc.) and nationalities (Formosan Speaking Peoples). So their Mother Tongue (Spoken Language) or First Language (Spoken and Written Language) are very different. Every person of Taiwan can speak several different languages (multilingual) such as Mr. Little Chiang, Mr. Ah Bien and Mr. Ah Jiou.
Mr. Little Chiang
his native language is Wunese
mother tongue is Wunese
second language is Mandarin
third language is Russian
Mr. Ah Bian
his native language is Hakkanese
mother tongue is Taiwanese
second language is Mandarin
third language is English "
I'm Taiwanese and I must say:
Only few people speak several dialects. But most people of Taiwan speak Mandarin in daily life. Let's take my roommate as example, he only speaks Mandarin at home, but his parents speak Minnan. So, he can listen,but can't speak Minnan dialect. This phenomenon in Taiwan is so usual.
Chen Shui Bian's native language is Minnan dialect, not Hakka.
His first language is Mandarin because he doesn't know how to write Minnan dialect. His third language is none because he doesn't speak English at all.
>> "You consider Cantonese as a language? Ask the Chinese people first!"
>> "You mean Cantonese is not a dialect of Chinese?"
The peoples of Chinese are always brain washing by the propaganda of Mandarinization Policy in that the Mandarin Speaking Elites defined Cantonese is a dialect.
In the points of linguistics can prove that the Cantonese is a language of Sinitic Group as the English in Germanic Group, French in Romance Group or Russian in Slavic Group.
The Cantonese and Mandarin just only because share the same Written Language; Classical Written Chinese before 1920s and Written Mandarin after 1920s. In the past old days, the English, Spanish or Polish all borrowed the Written Latin as their Written Language. No body would say that the English, Spanish or Polish are the dialects of Latin.
Guest Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:47 pm GMT
<<The peoples of Chinese are always brain washing by the propaganda of Mandarinization Policy in that the Mandarin Speaking Elites defined Cantonese is a dialect.>>
Please read Travis's post above carefully!
In the English context, you of course can say Cantonese is a language.
You mentioned "brain washing" , "propaganda" and "Mandarin Speaking Elites" ! Wow, you sound so nasty and unbearably Sovetic!
You threw in trash again!
<<In the points of linguistics can prove that the Cantonese is a language of Sinitic Group as the English in Germanic Group, French in Rom a lance Group or Russian in Slavic Group.>>
Cantonese as a dialect of Chinese is of coz a language of Sinitic Group, as Chinese belongs to the Sinitic(-Tibetan) Group.
<<The Cantonese and Mandarin just only because share the same Written Language; Classical Written Chinese before 1920s and Written Mandarin after 1920s. In the past old days, the English, Spanish or Polish all borrowed the Written Latin as their Written Language. No body would say that the English, Spanish or Polish are the dialects of Latin.>>
Are the writing systems of English, Spanish or Polish exactly the same as Cantonese and Mandarin Chinese?
Are English, Spanish and Polish spoken in one and the same country by one and the same nation with the same ethnical identity?
This thread really reminds me of a related topic concerning the Tibetan riots earlier this year.
In the points of "Western" politics, Tibet is not part of China, Tibetans are not Chinese people!
The Chinese people say NO to that, period!
Think about it, very interesting things!
The Tibetan people say NO to you!