"Half ten" - nine-thirty or ten-thirty?

Meh   Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:50 pm GMT
"Your arguments make NO sense. HOW can 12 AM logically be followed by 1 AM?? 12 PM is the end of the last hour of evening. At this point we roll over into the first hour of morning, the Ante Meridian, AM.

Give it up."

How do you even function at work...in society? Do you use your own personal conventions to TRY to confuse others, so you just end up confused? Wake up.
Bill the Yank   Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:24 pm GMT
Meh,

There's no contradiction.

As I was at great pains to point out, 12:00 PM is the END of PM.

Because analog clocks have no "0" the first minute of AM is CALLED 12:01 AM, but, as I clearly pointed out, it's really 00:01 AM. When the first digital clocks came on the market, some if not all actually did display the time as 00:01 AM, rather than 12:01 AM.

You see, you keep forgetting what PM, and AM MEAN, or is it that you don't care?

And, simply announcing that I have been illogical does not make it so.

I had been under the impression that this was a board about language. I point out a clear case where for one minute we pretend that a word actually reverses in meaning, and then reverses again the next minute. You simply refuse to recognize this, or discuss this curiosity of language, and attack me for pointing it out.

I stand by what I said, folks.
Meh   Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:52 pm GMT
Bill,

"As I was at great pains to point out, 12:00 PM is the END of PM."

I saw that the first time you wrote it and acknowledged it but you keep reiterating it unecessarily. I'm positive Felix is well aware of this, too. But that's only one meaning of one version of the "clock".

"Because analog clocks have no "0" the first minute of AM is CALLED 12:01 AM, but, as I clearly pointed out, it's really 00:01 AM. When the first digital clocks came on the market, some if not all actually did display the time as 00:01 AM, rather than 12:01 AM."

But you're contradicting yourself by saying 12:01 AM is equal to 0:01 AM since 12 hours AM is really 0 hours PM. In doing so, you're accepting the convention, in part.

"You see, you keep forgetting what PM, and AM MEAN, or is it that you don't care? "

Not true. I know what their Latin meanings are and have acknowledged this right from the start. You don't seem to care about the meaning being conveyed by the convention being used universally, dismissing it as a show of ignorance and illiteracy.

"I had been under the impression that this was a board about language. "

That's precisely why I made an analogy to the illogical nature of language.
Bill the Yank   Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:26 am GMT
Well, I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner.

The folks at your Greenwich Observatory partly agree with me, and thoroughly disagree with you:

"This means that 00:00 AM or 00:00 PM (or 12:00 AM and 12:00 PM) have no meaning."

Which is what I have been trying to get through to you. However, I disagree with them that 12:00 PM has no meaning, because 12:00 PM is not an astronomical even as noon is. There is nothing at all illogical about 12:00 PM being midnight, and there is everything illogical about noon being either AM or PM.

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/noon.htm

Another site also partly agrees with me, and totally disagrees with you:

To illustrate this, consider that "a.m" and "p.m." are abbreviations for "ante meridiem" and "post meridiem." They mean "before noon" and "after noon," respectively. Noon is neither before or after noon; it is simply noon. [They even used my exact words.] Therefore, neither the "a.m." nor "p.m." designation is correct. On the other hand, midnight is both 12 hours before noon and 12 hours after noon. Therefore, either 12 a.m. or 12 p.m. could work as a designation for midnight, but both would be ambiguous as to the date intended.
-------------
http://tf.nist.gov/general/misc.htm
------------

Baloney. There is nothing ambiguous at all about 12:00 PM. If 11:59 PM is UNambiguously on Monday, then so is 12:00 PM still on Monday. It's the very last moment of Monday, but it is still Monday., no less so than 11:59 PM is. Otherwise, midnight belongs to both Monday and Tuesday, which it cannot do.

Or, if 2400 is unambiguously Monday -- which it is -- then 12:00 PM is just as unambiguously Monday, 12 hours after its preceeding noon. It's just another name for the same moment. That it is also 12 hours before the following noon does NOT make it ambiguous. You just say, "Yes, 12:00 PM Monday is, indeed 12 hours before noon on Tuesday. And, your point is?"

The same moment cannot belong to two different days, therefore it definitely belongs to one, and which one that is is clearly Monday. The date changes AFTER 12:00 PM/2400, not at 12:00 PM/2400. No ambiguity.

12:00 PM is 12 hours after noon of a particular date. That date lasts through 12:00 PM. Any ambiguity arises from lack of understanding, not from the way we write the time, and have so written both institutions.

I hope, and trust that this will end the matter.
Bill the Yank   Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:51 am GMT
I was reading through these posts, and cannot resist. A while back I write:

All ambiguity, and foolishness would be gone if midnight were called 12 PM, which it is, and noon were written 12:00 without AM or PM. Then, 1 minute past noon, 00:01 PM would proceed gracefully through to 12:00 PM, turning over to 12:01 AM (really 00:01 AM) and on up through 11:59 AM to 12:00 Noon. Why this mindless insistence it be followed by a PM or AM when it is neither?

Please look here:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/Page/Schedules_Index_Page&c=Page&cid=1080072922206&ssid=3

and click on the Time dropdown in the blue on the right. Please note how midnight and noon are handled.
Meh   Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:07 am GMT
"I hope, and trust that this will end the matter."

The matter isn't really important because people and technologies will continue to use 12 PM for noon and 12 AM for midnight, even if this usage is baseless and ignores the true Latin significance of AM and PM. I've been using this convention for so long that it's never caused me to misinterpret the time.
Bill the Yank   Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:03 am GMT
Meh,

You've been clear, unambiguouss evidence from your own government that you are simply wrong.

Please note, should you desperately grasp at the straw that they say 12 PM is also wrong, that the ONLY reason they say that it is wrong is that it is "ambiguous."

I have shown, with simple words, and concepts that 12 PM is NOT ambiguous, and, therefore, not wrong.

I have absolutely no problem with calling them simply Noon -- which I advocated here -- and midnight. I have a MAJOR problem with calling noon 12 PM, and midnight 12 AM. What, are you surrendering your language and mine to Asian alarm clock makers?

Slavery used to be a "convention." Racial segregation was a "convention." Believing that the earth was the center of the solar system was a "convention." Disease was caused by evil spirits, and vapors was a "convention."

Am I equating this relative tempest in a teapot with those struggles? No. I AM pointing out the danger, and foolishness of using "convention" as your excuse to perpetuate something that's just plain wrong.

By now, most of you realize that you quite unfairly ridiculed me. I wonder how many of you will acknowledge that.

You all INSISTED that 12 PM was noon, and not just my government's site, but your government's site has unequivocally blasted that nutty idea out of the water. And, I have done the same to their silly assertion that 12 PM is ambiguous.

The only reason THEY say it's ambiguous is YOUR ignorance, and insistence on reversing 12 AM and PM. Based on my experience with you all here, I'd probably do the same.

Is there just ONE of you who will admit you've been wrong, and quite rude? Just one?
Bill the Yank   Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:08 am GMT
Sorry all,

I'm on my third glass of Chardonnay...

I meant:

You've been [GIVEN] clear, unambiguouss evidence from your own government...
Meh   Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:43 am GMT
"Am I equating this relative tempest in a teapot with those struggles? No. I AM pointing out the danger, and foolishness of using "convention" as your excuse to perpetuate something that's just plain wrong. "

Danger, foolishness...anything else to exaggerate the situation? Just like you say: it's a tempest in a teapot. But then why blow it out of proportion by writing about those struggles, like slavery, on the same page??! The convention is fine, it works and has no adverse consequences so that 12 PM for noon and 12 AM for midnight is a trivial quirk.

Convention is relative to context; in legal matters and scientific fields, your crusade has its place but again, you're not relating to context. You're overanalyzing by delving deeply into a technical relic. As with other aspects of language, meanings change, and this has happened with the literal meanings of AM and PM from Latin, whether you like it or not.

"By now, most of you realize that you quite unfairly ridiculed me. I wonder how many of you will acknowledge that."

Oh, cry me a river! At the time, it seemed very reasonable. :-)

"The only reason THEY say it's ambiguous is YOUR ignorance, and insistence on reversing 12 AM and PM. Based on my experience with you all here, I'd probably do the same."

It's ambiguous because it goes against convention. How can I be ignorant if I acknowledge what you've stated as a fact?

Think of electricity... Scientists don't really know how electricity works; all that matters is that it works and can be managed through conventions and representations, whether or not they are in-line with the true underlying nature of electricity.
Uriel   Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:53 am GMT
I can't believe anyone's still arguing about this.

It doesn't matter what ante meridian means in Latin, whether it's 12 o'clock or zero hour, or what your personal definition of illiterate is; everyone uses 12 am to indicate midnight, and 12 pm for noon.
Meh   Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:23 am GMT
"I can't believe anyone's still arguing about this."

Then why add to it?

"It doesn't matter what ante meridian means in Latin, whether it's 12 o'clock or zero hour, or what your personal definition of illiterate is; everyone uses 12 am to indicate midnight, and 12 pm for noon."

Expect Bill to rebut this old rehashed argument.
Bill the Yank   Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:45 am GMT
No, as I have clearly shown, everyone does NOT use !2 AM to mean midnight. Your own government and mine have quite clearly explained why.

You are a bunch of bad sports who will not admit you are wrong.

Your pretensdions notwithstanding, you insist on defending the indefensible, and still believe yourselves to be intellectually superior, when you are merely being intellectually dishonest.

Uriel, be ashamed of yourself.

Look at what I wrote that you all simply ignore, because you cannot counter it.

Bad sportsmanship is not becoming. Your pretensions of being linguists when you have to turn to baseless mockery of my pointing out the simple, unequivocal facts of what words MEAN is laughable.

"Duh, my alarm clock says 12 PM is noon so that means it's convention, so I can ignore history, and simple reason, so there!"

Is that what passes for honest intellectual debate in Britain, and the hideously silly halls of Academe here in the US, Uriel?

Mislabeling time so that you are TWELVE HOURS OUT is not trivial. I tried to throw you a bone by calling it a tempest in a tea pot, but you wouldn't meet me half way and admit you've been wrong, even when confronted with your own government's words.

"Look mommy, the Emperor is in his underwear!!"

"Shhhhh!! darling, don't say that!!"
Meh   Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:31 pm GMT
Ha ha ha LOL, you bitter, twisted, old Yank! ...all that nonsense of yours even after I defended your position off the bat, one page back.

No one is wrong. I know it upsets you that it can't be black and white but there's more than one way of looking at it. So please step off your ivory tower and spare us from your intellectually-superior-bad-sport rant.
Bill the Yank   Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:10 am GMT
There's more than one way of looking at whether it's today, or tomorrow,
midnight, or noon.

Have it your way, folks.

I see the EU is developing into a REALLY powerful, relevant economic force to challenge the US by regulating the height of playground swing seats, and thus, forcing many UK playgrounds to eliminate their swings. Google it.

You USED to rule the waves. The sun USED to never set on your empire. Your empire ruled in a fair, and just way, at least in the 20th Century. You took Gold, Sword, and Juneau Beaches. What happened to you?

What is WRONG with you?

Meh, that was a REALLY strong defense of me.

Gee, thanks.

Now, I repeat, you refuse to admit any error at all.

I conceeded that authorities I myself cited differed with me, and I said I differed with them. But, I cited them.

They DESTROYED you.

And you won't admit it.

You said Noon is 12 PM.

You said midnight is 12 AM, because your alarm clocks say so.

I'd sure let one of you operate on me!

I am not ready to let you Brits go. You are our people! We are Your people! We saved your butts in WW II, and you damn well know it. You fought valiantly while we twiddled our thumbs, until the Japs attacked us, that's true. But what is ALSO true is that you would be speaking German today without us.

Many of us CAME from you. I think every single one of the signers of our Declaration of Independence were English.

I keep appealing to your better nature, and I keep being rebuffed. Why is that?

You all present yourselves as the arbiters of good sportsmanship, but you on this board are just muggers.

That is, defeated muggers, left bleeding in the alley into which you dragged ME.

I will confess, I did have to brush off some dust.

Nevertheless, I leave you now to your pretensions...

Proceed
Bill the Yank   Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:17 am GMT
Hi Candy,

Got a response to what I wrote you?

Or are you just embarassed at the behavior of your countyrymen?

I would be, were I you.

Bill