Comment about Tom’s new article.

Randy   Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:35 am GMT
A few hours before reading Tom’s new article I had a similar experience like him. I wanted to read Hugh Jackman’s biography. Then I typed that name on Wikipedia.com, and I chose Spanish language. I felt disappointed after I took a look at the information that it gave me. It was so short, a complete lack of details because I could read what happened in his life until 2006. I went to the movies to watch “Australia” the day before yesterday so I was interested in the main actors. Then I chose English language in the same website and you know what, it turned out to be full of details about the life of this Australian actor. I mean that if you are interested in something, you should definitely look for information about it at English websites.

On the other hand it’s also interesting to notice the differences between American and Australian English.
back from Bovina   Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:02 am GMT
Is playing one of these graphics-intensive games a good way to learn English?

Perhaps a MMO would be good (with live players) -- if you can get onto a server in an English-speaking area.

NB -- I'm no gaming expert. The only games I've installed on my new computer (so far) are MS train simulator and MS flight simulator, and I've been known to hang out some at the Ahern Welcome Area a little.
an original name   Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:21 am GMT
Oh my! I can't believe the author complains about the fact that finally we can get good products in our own native languages!

<<"Don't they care about learning English?", I grumbled.>>

No! I do not care about learning English! At least, I don't care when I am trying to enjoy myself. I learn English, but that doesn't mean I hate my native language and want to NEVER use it at all. I think I will enjoy the game more if I understand it fully and can concentrate on the game not the language.

I am so glad that finally the dominance of English over our native languages in our OWN countries is finally subduing. It used to be that to get something cool you had to know English. Finally, enough people have learnt English that it is no longer necessary to know English for everything. I only hope that now that the next step will be fulfilled, that instead of American made games there will begin to appear locally made games.

I see Tom's point of view and understand it well, but he surely realises that he IS the minority and that indeed he DOES "want the weirdest things". Well, I'm not Polish but if he thinks that everyone in his country should be thirsting for the opportunity to "immerse themselves in English" even when they are trying to have fun and doing something completely unrelated to English, then it seems to me there must be something seriously wrong with the national psyche. Thankfully, my country has not gone that far!
Johnny   Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:37 pm GMT
<<I mean that if you are interested in something, you should definitely look for information about it at English websites.>>

That's why I started to learn English: 80% of the stuff I want to learn about is either not available in my native language, or not easily to find, or not for free. In English it is so easy for me to find what I need.
Then I started to like it more and more, and I became obsessed with it, like Tom.
What Tom describes in the article is what has always happened in my country: everyone "studies" English and many of them claim they actually know it, yet hardly anyone uses it for real or understands a single word of the songs they listen to. But the trend here is even worse: they use a lot of English words in every context to sound more "cool" or "professional", but they completely mispronounce and misuse them, and the result is disgusting. Like using the word "cool" itself when they could use another one, with unaspirated C and no dark L. Ugh!
Caspian   Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:48 pm GMT
I can see his point, however I do agree that he is the minority.

Why should English have a more important stance than any other language? If we continue like this, languages will disappear. English things should be in English (and American, Australian, etc.), however in other countries, things should be offered primarily in the language of that country. We should be making sure that these languages remain!
Laura Bush   Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:58 pm GMT
This is just a guess but I suppose Tom would want to experience stuff in it's original form, i.e. English game/film/song/book in English language and Polish/(insert the language of your choice) whatever in Polish/(insert the language of your choice) language. Just a connoisseurs joy in purity. I can relate to this.
Why aren't there more Polish/(...) whatever (stuff) is another issue.
Randy   Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:07 am GMT
<<"I learn English, but that doesn't mean I hate my native language and want to NEVER use it at all.">>

<<"then it seems to me there must be something seriously wrong with the national psyche">>

Obviously you ought to love your mother tongue over English. It doesn’t make sense to enjoy much more a foreign language than yours. However, English is a challenge for me because I feel really excited every time I watch a movie and I realize that I can understand almost all dialogues. Besides that you’re in disadvantage if you don’t know English well.

So I live in a Spanish-speaking country and I know that most Americans expect people to speak English everywhere. I consider that you would be in chaos if you have to live in a Spanish-speaking country and you don’t speak Spanish. Of course, when you’re in the place you work you wouldn’t have problems, but if you want to travel or do something else it’d be an unpleasant experience for you. I’m not saying that you aren’t going to find people who speak English but you should learn the language where you live in.
Tom   Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:27 pm GMT
"Obviously you ought to love your mother tongue over English."

Oh, come on, "ought to"? As in, it is my moral obligation to like Polish more than English?


"Is playing one of these graphics-intensive games a good way to learn English?"

Depends. Some games have very little dialogue (e.g. Test Drive Unlimited which is a racing game) and dialogue-based graphic adventures stopped being popular about 8 years ago (the only notable exception is the Sam & Max mini-series). However, there are plenty of role-playing games (e.g. Fallout 3, Mass Effect) and story-based shooters. In BioShock, you fight enemies, but also listen to incoming radio transmissions and audio logs that carry the plot forward. In Portal, you solve puzzles while an artificial intelligence gives you tasks and makes witty comments on your actions.

Grand Theft Auto IV, a genre in itself, has hundreds (thousands?) hours of dialogue -- you can talk not only to important characters, but even to passersby as you freely walk around the enormous virtual city, visiting shops, meeting friends, dating, and of course running the mob's errands. That game is probably the closest thing to actually living in New York City as an Eastern European would-be gangster. What an opportunity to learn English!


"No! I do not care about learning English! At least, I don't care when I am trying to enjoy myself."

People who have this sharp mental divide between "learning English" and "having fun" rarely learn English well. It leads to typical cases where the student would like to know English well, but thinks learning English is too much hard work. If I had not enjoyed watching American shows on TV, I certainly would have found it much harder to motivate myself to study English.

I say the following:
1. It is a good thing for people to know English well.
2. The availability (or exclusive availability) of English-language videogames helps people to learn English by motivating them and providing input.
3. The localization of videogames eliminates (2), therefore impedes (1), therefore it is bad.

You counter with the following:
4. The localization of videogames makes videogames more fun to play because it eliminates the mental effort related to understanding a foreign language.

I think you'll agree that it is far from certain that impeding English language education through localization is worth the extra fun for gamers.
Tom   Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:49 pm GMT
"We should be making sure that these languages remain!"

You know, I have never heard a single convincing argument that we should preserve language diversity. On the other hand, the benefits of a single world language are clear as day: better communication, no translation costs, easy travel, better exchange of scientific information, easier business... and level ground for everyone. Right now, scientists, doctors, businesspeople, etc. in non-English-speaking countries have to spend years learning English while Americans and the British just get it for free. What a headstart they get. Wouldn't it be fairer if everyone just learned English in childhood?
an origina lname   Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:58 pm GMT
<<I think you'll agree that it is far from certain that impeding English language education through localization is worth the extra fun for gamers. >>

I don't know whether it is 'worth it' or not, but the vast majority obviously prefer the games in their own language. Sure, it should be possible to get an original for eccentrics like you, but the money is made by the localised versions.

What do you mean by 'worth it' anyway? That we should take every opportunity to learn English? Should we stop using calculators and do all the calculations by hand because it is advantageous and helps keep the mind sharp? Would that be worth it? For many people English is no different, just a 'decoration'.

<<People who have this sharp mental divide between "learning English" and "having fun" rarely learn English well. >>

Except for the fact that this divide actually exists. I wouldn't buy a game in English because I don't want to be interrupted by the dictionary every 5 minutes. Looking up words in a dictionary when trying to play is not my idea of fun, and surely for the majority also.

<<1. It is a good thing for people to know English well.
2. The availability (or exclusive availability) of English-language videogames helps people to learn English by motivating them and providing input.
3. The localization of videogames eliminates (2), therefore impedes (1), therefore it is bad. >>

English is not THAT important for the average person. Once one has a high school level knowledge and can read newspaper level text there is really no need to learn more unless it is necessary for your profession. I, for example, have learnt English for many years, yet I have never once needed English. Sure, it was useful for the occasional glance at Wikipedia or reading the New York Times, but that was just capricious interest and I could've done without. So in my case, English has been no different to doing calculations by hand, it has been useful for keeping the mind sharp but that's all.

English is important, but no more so than science or mathematics. Even if you are not scientifically inclined and wanted to be a writer for example, it would be better to improve your native language since you will have no chance of competing with native English speakers.
the least original name o   Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:16 pm GMT
<< You know, I have never heard a single convincing argument that we should preserve language diversity. On the other hand, the benefits of a single world language are clear as day: better communication, no translation costs, easy travel, better exchange of scientific information, easier business... and level ground for everyone. Right now, scientists, doctors, businesspeople, etc. in non-English-speaking countries have to spend years learning English while Americans and the British just get it for free. What a headstart they get. Wouldn't it be fairer if everyone just learned English in childhood? >>

Are you saying that non English speaking countries should give up their native languages, or that they provide a bilingual education (English + native) from childhood? If it's the latter I'd wholeheartedly agree.
an original name   Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:43 pm GMT
Are all Poles so down on themselves as Tom is? Could this by why so many Poles live in England? To remain in Poland would be against the principle of "immersing oneself in English" and would be "wanting the weirdest things". To be honest I regret picking English as my language, I now wish I had learnt a language which is more interesting to me personally, rather than getting dragged along like a sheep by the fad of English. Children should be given more choice when they begin foreign languages at school, more languages than just English are useful.
TommyHawk:   Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:01 pm GMT
Knowledge is power as the saying goes. Internet is desgined in English. I am going to lack a lot of useful information If I don't know English. Someone can Learn English well without sacrificing their mother tongue so what's the problem?

All of these articles Tom write have only one point and that is to motive his readers. Take learning language seriously.

I am better educated about my illness when I talk to Doctor Thanks to internet and English. Otherwise I'd take their word for anyhting harmful.
an original name   Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:30 pm GMT
<<Knowledge is power as the saying goes. Internet is desgined in English. I am going to lack a lot of useful information If I don't know English. Someone can Learn English well without sacrificing their mother tongue so what's the problem? >>

The internet has only existed for less than a decade and has only been useful for about 5 years. It's not like people were uneducated before that. It was quite easy to get knowledge before the internet, you know... Besides, you are ignoring the fact that although the internet was designed in English, it was only the trendsetter, and other languages are now mushrooming in their use on the internet. English is rapidly being caught up with.
over the hill   Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:14 am GMT
<<The internet has only existed for less than a decade and has only been useful for about 5 years. >>

The internet was started back in the late 60s, but initially was not much used by the public.

Usenet started being useful to a small subset of the public back in the 80s, as PCs started becoming popular. With the WWW, starting sometime in the mid 90s, internet use really caught on for ordinary people, like me. Personally, the internet started being useful around 1996 or 1997 (99%+ of internet use is www-based, for me).