TS Eliot discussion, American vs. British literature thread

Damian in Edinburgh   Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:16 pm GMT
Fagin.....Charles Dicken's immortal portrayal of a scoundrel and a rogue and grabber and grasper of everything he could ay his thieving hands on - who also happened to be a Jew.

If Dickens had been alive right now in Britain instead of in mid-Victorian London and introduced this character to us all there would no doubt be howls of anguish issuing forth from the PC Brigade......the very idea of assuming such an individual was representative of an entire race would be too much to take for some people.

When "Oliver Twist" was first let loose on the British literary scene it simply didn't result in accusations of racism directed at the author or such like. Fagin just had to be Jewish, and that was that.....it was just accepted as being part of the course in those days.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LVeJwXUg98Q&NR=1

Here in the UK recently the Royal Family has been involved in more than just a wee bit of a hoo-ha over the way two of them addressed genuine friends and colleagues of theirs. Prince Harry made a comment three years ago (!) in which he referred to a military colleague of his as the "Paki" - said entirely in a friendly manner with no malice at all intended. In the military such comments form part of everyday banter and the subject of Harry's remarks was not offended in any way at all - in fact, "Paki" was his generally accepted "nickname" and was happy to be addressed as such. Sadly, the media, as ever, thought differently once this tape came to light!

On the same principle, British people are known as Brits - a term which really was meant in an offensive and derogatory manner in the days of conflict between the Irish Republican insurgents and the British military in action in the Ireland of those days. Now "Brits" is accepted as a bog standard name for us lot generally. Just imagine the reaction if "us Brits" started making some kind of issue about it now and said it was "extremely offensive to our flower-like sensitivities"! Bah humbug! - as Dickens would say.

Soon after that "problem" with Prince Harry, his Old Man, Old Jug Ears* was accused of "racism" when it became known that he, too, addressed a long standing friend and associate of his, who happened to be black, as "Sooty". To the guy in question it was a real term of amicable and friendly affection and respect and as everybody, not just Old Jug Ears, referred to him as "Sooty" and no way did he take exception to being called by that name. No so with sections of the media though...that's what makes this profession so interesting as well as exasperating.

*The name sometimes used to refer to Prince Charles in some of the less respectful of the UK media. He is reported to be quite amused by it, but there you go....there's not much he can do about it. That's what happens with an unfettered press, but they do look a wee bit like that, don't they?
royalidiots   Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:00 pm GMT
I hope the royal family gets owned once and for all. I don't generally like PCness, but if it's to the detriment of the royals then it's all good.
Robin Michael   Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:13 am GMT
Damian

If you read the book, it does not read 'Fagan, who happened to be Jewish', or 'Fagan the Jew', it says:

The Jew did this, The Jew did that, The Jew - Fagan.

I do not wish to labour the point, but if you read the book I think you will be surprised at how anti-semitic it is.
enough is enough!   Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:21 am GMT
Who cares if it's antisemitic? That was reality back then. What next, not studying WWII in schools because it's racist? Not studying apartheid in the USA because it's racist?
Uriel   Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:38 am GMT
Well, you gonna pull "The Merchant of Venice" off the shelves, too? ;P

We get the same pseudo-controversy every so often in the US with "Huckleberry Finn", which includes a major character called "Nigger Jim". Horrors! The fact that it was SUPPOSED to be a scathing commentary about the evils of slavery always seems to escape these would-be censors.
Damian in Edinburgh   Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:42 am GMT
Robin Michael: You are perfectly correct - Fagin's racial status was indeed referred to quite negatively and quite often in the book, but the point I wished to make was that it did not invoke the same sense of "outrage" and accusations of unwarranted racism at the time the book was first published in 19th century Britain as it would today.

AAMOI: The show "Oliver" has just opened up on the London West End stage again - at the Theare Royal, Drury Lane, with an up and coming star Jodie Prenger in the role of Nancy, and the inimitable Rowan Atkinson as Fagin.

http://www.theatre-royal.com
Damian in Edinburgh   Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:44 am GMT
Of course, you need to click on the "Oliver" link in order to get the whole spiel.
planchette   Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:08 pm GMT
<This post is not about beating my chest to declare the superiority of American literature, as in fact I think that Ireland and Russia have produced the most impressive literary canon.>

How would you measure such things?