Are you becoming more British?

<<Launceston - "Lawn-stun" Cornwall, [next to] Eng. >>

This is actualy what the English call it. The correct pronounciation, in Cornwall, is "Lan-sun".

<<Would the missing letter "S" in the verbalised Illinois have a similar explanation? No? - ok.....I thought not- doesn't that have some connection with an Indian tribe or something? As with Arkansas? I've a feeling this has all been kindly explained in here before by an American. And what happened to the missing second "c" in the spoken Connecticut?>>

Connecticut's lucky to only be missing an extraneous C. We did what we could with those French and Indian names back in those pioneering days ... given that few settlers and trappers were likely to speak much of either. Most American words and place-names of Indian origin have been hacked into some semblance of pronounceability and may or may not resemble the original native terms very closely -- as you can see in this list of borrowings:

http://www.zompist.com/indianwd.html

While moos survived the transition fairly intact when it became "moose", arathkone got manhandled into "raccoon", and pawcahiccora into "hickory". Sometimes we left an Indian name pretty unmolested, but let it take on a whole new meaning, as when we transliterated Moskitu-auke to "Mosquito Hawk".

On top of that, many Indian words and names came into American English after first having been filtered into French or Spanish, along with whatever modifications had been necessary to make them fit French and Spanish tongues!

Then we had to contend with different spelling traditions, and you can see our hybrid attempts to deal with all this mess where we retain the silent S's of Des Moines, St. Louis, Arkansas, Illinois, and Iroquois, but steadfastly refuse to have anything to do with that "wa"-sound that -ois should have in French: thus we have "Illinoy" and "Irrikwoy" instead of "Illinwa" and "Irrikwa". We were cool with spelling an SH-sound with a CH in Chicago, but couldn't bring ourselves to pronounce Detroit as "Day-twa". We can handle the "roozh" part of Louisiana's capital city, but the first part is said as "batten" (and if you are curious, Baton Rouge is named for a bright red variety of lichen that grows on trees in that area -- of course, we say "lye-ken", and not "litch-en"!) Boise... well, it's BOYsee to its residents and BOYzee to the rest of us, but certainly never "bwaz" as was probably originally intended!

Arkansas ("AR-ken-saw") and Kansas (KAN-zus) derive their names from the same Indian tribe's name, as overheard by the French on one side and by English-speakers on the other. Of course, Kansas was first visited by the Spanish, who had to stand on their horses' saddles to see over the high prairie grass. Who knows what they called it. They were content to not go much further in that direction!

Our buddy greg once posted some even more contorted Franco-American contrivances, such as the town of "Low Freight", which once upon a time was the town of L'Eau Froid, "Lemon Fair", which was once Les Monts Verts, and "Bob Ruly", originally Bois Brulé. Given that the entire middle portion of the US was once French territory, examples like this abound.

The Spanish had no problem adopting native terms for food, like mole and guacamole (yes, they are related words), but had no patience with many place names; they simply replaced them wholesale with saints' names rather than deal with local flavor like Ohkay Owingeh (which is now once again the official name of the former San Juan Pueblo). Spanish place names in the US have fared a little better than their French counterparts, owing to the more reasonable Spanish attitude toward spelling, although "Loss Annjelis" -- or, god forbid, "Lows Annjeleez"-- is a still far cry from the original pronunciation of Los Angeles ("Lohss Ahn-heh-less).

Uriel - thanks for all that info...very absorbing! It's very obvious that the origin of the seemingly illogical pronunciation of many American place names is just as complex as our versions over here....all long since lost in the midst of time but which can, with extra effort, be delved into with research and application if you've a mind to, and the time in which to do it.

Some of ours here in Scotland can be just as weird as those down in England, but there are added complications up here as well for those not accustomed to them, notably the different linguistic influences up here.

I think the English version of strange place names is more quaint, and in fact, more comical than ours up here. My mate and I had a lot of fun looking at all the funny places names on signposts we encountered on the long (by British standards!) journey from Edinburgh to Cornwall....

Two villages called Lower Slaughter and Upper Slaughter.
Another signpost saying "The Barringtons" and "The Rissingtons", one name above the other saying just that - like they were pointing the way to two feuding families, instead of four separate villages with "Great" and "Little" in front of each respective name.

We saw a Wyre Piddle, a Buttocks Booth and an Upper Dicker - we didn't see a Lower Dicker, and once down in Cornwall we passed through Doublebois and Dobwall, both villages adjoining each other, and then a wee place called Indian Queens - we had no idea what to expect there but it seemed very ordinary which was disappointing...just a very busy road intersection....not a single sight of any of your way out of place mega camp Iroquois redskins prancing about in high fashion.

This may just be folk lore, but I was under the impression that Baton Rouge actually came from the incident of it's discovery, wherein the first thing the French saw was a bloody spear atop a hill, put there after a battle. Therefore- Baton Rouge- red stick.

Damian- Sorry to reply to so many of your comments at once, but my internet's been out.

You were talking about British humour and I have to ask- what's your opinion of Frankie Boyle? Cuz, he's pretty famous for a Scottish Comedian.

About the expletives being bandied about the office- I've noticed on several British shows that everyone seems to call by their bosses by first name. Is that really common, because we wouldn't dare here in America, unless specifically instructed to do so.

About Paris Hilton- Please believe it's a common misconception that all Californians talk that horrible way. We really don't. We all have the capability of course, drilled into us at school, but there's an on/off switch she apparently disabled somewhere along the way.

About the young man in the shop- Would this be a common way to adress an older person by this young man's generation? Because over here, whenever we encounter someone over sixty, the slang disappears, the sir/ma'am becomes the only form of adress, and any traces of ValSpeak (including uptalk) vanish completely. Our parents see to it we're well-trained to do that.

Okay, that's it for now. Thanks.

"I've noticed on several British shows that everyone seems to call by their bosses by first name. Is that really common, because we wouldn't dare here in America, unless specifically instructed to do so."

Really? Because I don't think I ever had even an interviewer, much less a boss who didn't invite me to use their first name. I can't think of anyone I've ever worked with who I called by anything other than their first name.

I've certainly never had to refer to a colleague or boss by their last name.
The only exception would be for company execs and owners.

I do think that there should be a little more respect when talking to strangers of a certain age though.

I've never had to use anything but a first name when speaking with senior colleagues or even senior corporate clients, and I work for a fairly conservative bank in the NY area. The only exception has been for foreign clients. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country?

When I was first applying for corporate jobs my senior year, given my European background, I was very much inclined to call everyone "Mr." that and "Ms." this, but I soon found that my fellow undergrads were calling senior managers by their first names even at that early stage, and no one seemed to mind.

Incidentally, students called professors by name at my college all the time - I never, ever heard anyone address a professor as "Professor This" or "Professor That". I understand this is not usual, however.

>><<Launceston - "Lawn-stun" Cornwall, [next to] Eng. >>

This is actualy what the English call it. The correct pronounciation, in Cornwall, is "Lan-sun". <<

That's interesting. In Australia, it's unabbreviated so the Tasmanian city of Launceston is pronounced Lawn-cess-tun.

Rene:
I'm not too sure what you mean by "he's pretty famous for a Scottish comedian!" What are you implying? ;-)

Scotland has produced as fair number of funny guys (in the comic sense over the years) and many of them became quite famous - at least in the UK as a whole. Funnily enough, most of the came from the Glasgow area as well, as does Frankie Boyle himself, as you may be able to tell from his accent in the YT clip below.

He can be a bit of a shock Jock* (literally) a lot of the time, but he peppers his jokes with four letter words only when he's doing the private clubs abnd dives, sort of thing....rarely on a wider public stage. He mostly deals with topical subjects as his subject matter, and he seems to hold strong views on so many issues - in fact he seems to profess "hatred and negative attitudes" to so many things, but of course this may well be all part of his act. Isn't that the nature of shock Jocks anyway?

He "detests London" - so he has moved back to Glasgow - and then says he "hates that too but loves it at the same time" - and he never flies anywhere so goes by train; he "loathes" politicians, but so do the rest of us; he "despises" religion and religious evangelism and also mainstream culture - and what he calls the "Brighton Liberals" - Brighton being a seaside city on the south coast of England which contains the largest gay population %wise in Europe, outside of London of course. Yet he says he isn't homophobic at all.

Even more strangely he dislikes audience applause - so all in all, a wee bit of a funny guy in other ways too, but as I say, it's all an act I reckon.

Anyway, here is Frankie Boyle on a UK TV comics show in which the comedians have to comment on whatever issue is chucked at them with no prior warning...off the cuff stuff, sort of thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwvYXUzpJQE&feature=related


Calling your boss by his first name (or hers, of course, but mine is a bloke anyway) - I do so with mine and he's 42 which isn't all that old really, is it? I can't even imagine calling any boss otheer than his/her first name - that is very miuch the case across the board here in the UK I reckon. I suppose at first in a job, and to play safe , you just have to play it by ear, go with the flow, and it depends on the type of office it is, but generally speaking it's first name terms, and in the UK informality is very much more prevalent now than what it seems to have been in the past, and thank goodness for that. As long as the respect is there then it's fine with Duncan or Sue or Steve or Helen or Angus or whatever your boss is called. I work in a generally "young" office anyway, average age about 21 to 30 and stuffy formality just ISN'T the order of the day - it would seem like something out of Dicken's Scrooge and poor old Bob Cratchit and high stools, sloping desks and quill pens and dusty reminders of a bygone age.

Some much older people may have more of a problem with it - take UK hospitals for instance - many older patients take exception to being addressed by their first names by the nurses - and even doctors sometimes. I've only been in hospital once when I injured my shoulder playing rugby at school and I certainly didn't mind being called Damian by anyone at all. What else would they call a teenager anyway, but even now, at nearly 27, I can't imagine being called anything else. As long as they don't call me too early in the morning.

The elderly guy in that store in Sutton - he obviously had a wee bit of a hissy fit about being called "mate" by a male assistant about one third of his age - it's very much a generational thing, and Sutton can be a wee bit of a snooty, "posh" suburb of South London anyway, so it does depend on the area as well I suppose. You must also remember that overall customer service in the UK is not quite like it is in the USA - many Americans find it to be less respectful over here and some shop assistants can be seen as being rude and offhand here as well - in ways not generally seen in America where, apparently, it is so much easier to fire people than it is here and in Europe generally, and minimum wage rates are quite low. Is that right? I believe that in America many wages are quite basic, with tips and gratuities are virtually expected from all customers, and really having to be earned by staff in order to bring wages up to a decent standard, so making customer service in America as good as it is compared with here, but even here now the economic situation is pretty dicey to say the least, so people really will have to keep up to the mark as much as they can in all ways.

We addressed our tutors at uni by their first names, too...all except one, but he originally came with the Ark anyway.

Frankie Boyle's reference to ASBOs - Anti Social Behavour Orders....a form of "punishment" meted out to neds (or chavs as they are called in England) by the courts - yobs and scallies causing public disorder and acts of violence and vandalism, short of wholesale serious criminal acts.

ASBOs are regarded as a bit of a joke as quite often they prove not to be as effective as the courts imposing them would like them to be, and in many cases they are actuall regarded as Badges of Honour for many of these neds.

Damian- thanks for your reply!

I didn't mean anything by "for a Scottish comedian" except that foreign culture doesn't really seep into America very often, and he, apparently has. I was watching Mock the Week (love Ed Byrne and David Mitchell) and just wondered if his excessively strong views and hatred of all things (though I'm sure most of it's an act) is a common type of humor amongst the Scottish.

I love his accent by the way!

I've always called all my bosses by their first names, except for the ones with "Doctor" in front of their names. Of course, there was also the fact that I just couldn't say "Dick" with a straight face....his last name was a very preferable alternative in that circumstance! Certainly saved me from being fired for smirking.

Only waiters and waitresses depend on tips as part of their income, and they tend to make pretty good money off of those, as you generally tip 15-20% of your meal price to them. For a $20-30 dinner for two, they're probably getting minimum wage for every table they serve, and they usually have multiple tables going at the same time for much of their shift. I've often marvelled at how much I've paid for someone to write down what I want, bring it over, and refill my glass two or three times in forty minutes, which is what, five or six minutes of direct face time? It's more than I made in an hour loading trucks when I was in college! So I ain't feeling too sorry for them.

People who work in retail stores or behind service counters aren't generally getting any tips at all. A few might be making commission -- a base rate plus a percentage of each sale they make -- but most are working for straight wages. They will still give you good customer service because that is simply what is expected in a customer-clerk interaction. Their bosses will insist on it and their customers will be very taken aback if they don't get it. It's just customary at this point. And the more money they make, the better the quality of service, in my experience. The minimum-wage slaves are usually the ones giving you crappy service because they hate their jobs and don't care. And that's no way to get a raise or a promotion....

It might be a bit late and off-topic now, but Damian in Scotland might be interested to know that Robert Burns' poetry was quite popular in Russia in the second half of XX c. There was a brilliant translator of his poems, Samuel Marshak.
To learn more, see for example http://www.toccataclassics.com/artistdetail.php?ID=33 .

>>That's interesting. In Australia, it's unabbreviated so the Tasmanian city of Launceston is pronounced Lawn-cess-tun. <<

That's interesting. I guess it's much to do with the accent though.
The Cornish accent does tend to slur certain syllables and so 'fowey' and 'launceston' become 'foy' and 'lansun'.
Australia does hold the biggest Cornish population outside of Cornwall but I guess that the pronounciation of your Launceston has evolved with the Australian accent.

Thanks for all the info and contributions, guys.

This Launceston thing - I can well understand the Cornish pronunciation of this place name as they are a rule unto themselves in matters such as this, quite unlike anywhere else in England - at least, that's the impression we got when we were down in Cornwall. I'm sorry that it may grate on the nerves of some fervently patriotic Cornish people for me to link Cornwall to England, even though it technically is part of England! Let's just agree on the "Celtic Fringe", of which we are part, too, really. ;-)

I never got to hear anyone actually pronounce "Launceston" when we were down there but I do know that the BBC, for instance, would say "LAWN-stun". As we went to Fowey then for sure we heard it pronounced as "Foy" - and that's how he BBC Pronunciation Department instructs its staff to say it.

The rules behind the Launceston pronunciation apply to a lot of other placenames with the same sort of letter combination and construction, I reckon - the simply reduction of the letters to a more basic verbalisation for historical reasons....Gloucester (Gloster) Worcester (Wooster) Leicester (Lester) Bicester (Bister) etc.

However, the pronunciation of the Gloucestershire town of Cirencester - founded on the massive Roman fortress of Corinium Dobunnorum - goes against this rule as it's pronounced as "SIREN-sester". Nothing is ever really straightforward in life, is it? Just as well - think how boring that would be without any challenges or spanners in the works!

The Romans may have founded Cirencester but that's where the late Princess Diana used to go shopping accompanied by her two young sons, Princes William and Harry - she lived just outside Cirencester, at Highgrove, along with Charley boy, of course. The people of Cirencester got used to seeing her and the two boys window shopping in the town centre and popping into Macdonalds for a burger and fries, and they left her well alone and with all due respect for her privacy, which was her absolute right. Never once was Charles seen with them, apparently.