Possessive 's after S - Pronounciation

Johnny   Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:47 am GMT
How do you use the possessive after nouns that already end in S or Z? Let's forget about any conventions there might be in writing. Let's just focus on the pronunciation.

Britney Spears's mother = Spearsiz? Or just Spears?
Travis's post = Travisiz?
Nadine Velasquez's hot body = Velasquesiz?

I have always been taught I should add an "iz" sound anyway, but I have actually heard the first example with no particles added: "Miss Spears' mother" (not Spearsiz).
Any advice for me? I'm stuck. Thanks.
Guest   Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:41 am GMT
I say

Spearziz
Travisiz
Valasqueziz

always with an added -iz sound
LL   Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:42 am GMT
Agree.
Travis   Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:56 am GMT
As long as I am being mentioned here, I would have to say that I strongly agree here as well.
Lazar   Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:24 am GMT
I agree with the previous posters about "Travis" and "Velasquez", but for names like "Spears" that seem to contain an embedded morphological /s/, I think my preference would be to use <Spears'> and pronounce it with one syllable.
beneficii   Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:41 am GMT
According to Strunk and White, just adding an apostrophe, excluding the '-s', can only be properly done in the following circumstances:

--If the possessive was a plural that ended in '-s'.

--If the possessive is an ancient name ending in '-es' or '-is'.

--If the possessive is the name "Jesus," as in "Jesus Christ."

All other circumstances call for the addition of the '-s' after the apostrophe.
Travis   Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:39 pm GMT
There must be some dialectal variation on that matter, as here it seems that the range of names for which such omission of such can occur is narrower; using "Spears" or "Jesus" without modification as an s-genitive form does not sound right to me, even though I would definitely due so for other names with a specific /(V)z/ morpheme at their end. Probably the matter is that I see "Spears" and "Jesus" as being single morphemes, unlike names like "Williams" or "Haynes" but like names like "Jones" (etymology be damned).
Johnny   Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:10 pm GMT
<<...but for names like "Spears" that seem to contain an embedded morphological /s/, I think my preference would be to use <Spears'> and pronounce it with one syllable.>>

Ah, that's interesting! That might be why I heard "Spears' mother". So it seems we have two patterns, as I have read before:

1) People like Lazar who tend to add "iz" anyway, but there are some exceptions (Spears..., ...adding iz to Jesus seems something that varies regionally..., ...iz is likely to be left out if a name already ends with "ziz", "siz", "sis" as in Moses, etc...)

2) People like Travis who tend to make a distinction between one-syllable words and words that have more syllables, so you have Spears's mother ("iz" added) but Williams' house (no "iz")

That's curious. And so confusing for non-native speakers :)
Travis   Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:02 pm GMT
No, no, that is not the pattern I have. The pattern I have is similar to that which Lazar has, except that the special cases which don't take the extra /ɪz/ are more limited, as certain sorts of names that Lazar would omit such from, such as "Spears" and "Jesus", are ones that I would still include such with. I was also pointing out that the rules for such, at least in the dialect here, do not necessarily make sense etymologically, as by the rules above both "Williams" and "Jones" should not take the extra /ɪz/ as they both end in a patronymic /z/, but in reality here "Jones" indeed does take such while "Williams" does not.
Johnny   Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:28 pm GMT
Ok, since it seems confusing, I think a few examples might be the only solution, just to get the idea how you guys use possessives.

Spears
Williams
Jones
Gonzales
Roberts
James
Chris
Francis

Would you add "iz" or not? Thanks.
Johnny   Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:30 pm GMT
Oh, those are all to be taken as singular nouns, either first or second names, not as family names in the plural which obviously don't take "iz" in possessives.
Damian in Edinburgh   Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:59 pm GMT
There is no hard and fast rule in the pronunciation of some of the names ending with an "S" - and it seems to depend on location as well. Take the name James, for instance, a common enough name, at least here in the UK.

Both Central London and Central Edinburgh contain a St James's Square -.....both spelt exactly as I have stated, complete with the apostrophe, but pronounced differently. In London it's St James-iz Square, here it's just plain St James Square. We Scots are always as sparing as we can be in just about everything.

How about the princess's dresses? Sounding sibilantly, hissingly serpentine if nothing else.
beneficii   Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:13 pm GMT
Travis,

In Jesus' name we pray, amen.
Usero   Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:19 pm GMT
Aren't they supposed to be like this?

Britney Spears' mother.
Travis' hair.
Velasquez's hot body.
Leasnam   Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:38 pm GMT
<<Britney Spears' mother.
Travis' hair.
Velasquez's hot body. >>

Even if they're written this way, they're still pronounced as if they were written:
Britney Spears's mother
Travis's hair
Velasquez's hot body