without accent
Paul, I wonder if you and some others are misunderstanding the question.
Danilio wants to know if someone who BEGINS to learn AFTER the age of 21 can be truly accentless; I contend that if it's possible, I never heard it.
The sample you gave us is of a young man who might possibly not even be 21! If he is, he certainly isn't much older.
<<It is believed that the neurons involving native language acquirement are fully grown by the age of 21, making true native speech after that age impossible.>>
These dubious theories coming from bullshit scientists contribute to the defeatist attitude surrounding language learning. If people don't believe that its possible, they won't try, and they won't acheive.
Anybody is capable of producing the sounds of ANY human language at ANY age, and theres no "gift" or "talent" involved. Its difficult, but very far from impossible.
<<The sample you gave us is of a young man who might possibly not even be 21! If he is, he certainly isn't much older.>>
The person in the video is actually 28 years old.
He learned english when he lived in the U.S for 4 years (when he was in his early twenties..
Take easy man! It is not so easy! If I known someone that speak with my accent, I don't know that is a foreign, this person needs to tell me.
Only 2 persons I know in my life that learned portuguese without accent, portuguese is a slow language, almost without links, elisions, merges, and is near to what you write is what you spell, having only 9 vowels, I think this is very easy comparing with english. My doubt is if in english is possible and if have a sort of examples, nobody reply with yes, only you, with this video(?).
↑ Paul, I sure hope you're right: I've gleaned the possibility of learning a foreign language, but at my age (46) I am concerned that I might be too old to achieve true fluency.
Apropos the "critical learning hypothesis", I once read a study done on the theory. It appears that for most of us the theory holds true, but a few gifted individuals apparently can overcome it. If you'll allow me some time I will see if I can find the study for your perusal.
One thing I noted is that the man in the video doesn't truly speak without an accent. His rate of speech seems odd and he elongates certain sounds unnaturally. (For example, his pronunciation of final 's' is unnaturally elongated.) Overall, however, he's doing beyond excellent.
To be fair, I listened to that video with an a priori knowledge that he was non-native. I don't know if this knowledge has shaded my perceptions, but I suspect that it has. What we need to do is have someone else listen who doesn't know he's non-native, and ask that person.
Just some thoughts:
Language education is so dismal now, that people have resorted to pathological psuedo-scientific explanations for their failure. Rather than fault the teaching methods, they say you can't because "your brain isn't programmed to do it" at some arbitrary age limit. Ha!
...ohh and all the numerous exceptions (people that acheive native-like fluency and pronunciation), are "gifted" and have superhuman abilities. What a crock!
The harm these theories are doing is incalculable, since so many people have accepted it as true, and actually beleive their brains essentially stop working at 21.
Its a sad state of affairs.
Well, what's definitely true is that, for most people, once you're past your early teenage years, accent acquisition by osmosis becomes much, much harder. When living in a foreign country, kids will generally lose their accent "automatically", without having to specifically try for it. After a certain age, losing your accent becomes a conscious, labor-intensive process (again, for most people). But, as a minimum, it _is_ possible to lose 99.9% of your accent through hard work and persistence.
I'm still not sure if achieving a consistent 100% native accent is possible or not. I've been able to pass for a native speaker over the phone and in recordings online, but people still pick up on my accent in person quite often - that said, I'm still working on it. I can definitely sound native for seconds and maybe even minutes at a time (indeed, I believe nearly anyone can learn to sound native for stretches at a time), but eventually something always slips.
The problem for me is not even so much that I don't know how to say something correctly, but that, for me, speaking with a native-like accent requires consistent effort and attention - if I get distracted, I will often slip up. Naturally, speaking my own native language doesn't require nearly the same level of concentration. So, at least at this stage, I'm definitely engaging two very different mental processes for speaking my native language and for speaking English - probably a contribution from the physiological-changes argument. Whether the two processes will grow closer over time - whether I will be able to "internalize" a native-sounding English accent - remains to be seen.
"ohh and all the numerous exceptions (people that acheive native-like fluency and pronunciation), are "gifted" and have superhuman abilities. What a crock!"
I hope you're right, Paul. Nothing would please me more to think that complete fluency in a foreign language is possible for everybody, at any age, with enough effort.
But I'm a realist. There are too many things about learning a language that don't cotton too well to being taught in class—intonation, inflections, and the complexities of a language, to name just a few. For example, does the man in your video even know what "nnnnnn-oh" means, spoken with descending intonation? I doubt it very much; an Englishman might not even know....
<<Well, what's definitely true is that, for most people, once you're past your early teenage years, accent acquisition by osmosis becomes much, much harder. When living in a foreign country, kids will generally lose their accent "automatically", without having to specifically try for it. After a certain age, losing your accent becomes a conscious, labor-intensive process>>
That's the language barrier. It DOES exits. That barrier doesn't prevent anyone from learning anything, it just prevents adults from learning the same way as babies and little children do. Adults can still learn the same things, but more slowly and using different methods. Some adults are naturally talented and can learn certain things more easily, but this doesn't prevent the others from learning the same things.
<<The problem for me is not even so much that I don't know how to say something correctly, but that, for me, speaking with a native-like accent requires consistent effort and attention - if I get distracted, I will often slip up.>>
This brings up another big problem: how long have you been speaking with a non-native accent, and how much?
Think of someone who started learning English at 20, he's now 30 and never focused on his accent which is non-native and strong, and he has been practicing his bad spoken English daily for at least 7 years.
Now think of someone who started learning English at 20, he's now 30 and he's focused on his pronunciation since the very beginning, but he rarely practice spoken English because he has no one to talk with, and he follows English shows on TV and or the radio very often, so his listening skills are very good.
The first guy has a strong accent and it would be extremely hard to work on it. The second guy might not even have a foreign accent, and in any case it would be fairly easy to work on it.
This stresses one of Antimoon's rules: avoid mistakes if you can. The more you've been making a mistake, the harder it'll be to get rid of it. That's one of the reasons why I insist that pronunciation should be one of the first things to focus on when starting to learn a language. Lesson number one: "Animals". Not really. If you don't know the schwa, you can't even pronounce "animals". Lesson number one: "The Schwa". Well, that's better.
That's a valid point - even though I live in the US and speak English every day, the length of time that I've had anything approaching a native-like accent is much shorter than the period I spent speaking with a heavy accent. . .so time & persistence may indeed be of help. But I'd say it's an empirical question, not one answered by logic alone.
Well, it probably also depends on what your native language sounds like. If most of the sounds are close to the ones you need for your second language, than it should be easy to mimic a native accent. On the other hand, if your original language sounds nothing like the new one you are trying to learn, and you have trouble making or distinguishing some of its sounds, than you will be more likely to retain a foreign accent. And then there is the matter of people being unique individuals. Some may have an ear or a natural talent for languages, while others struggle no matter how hard they try or how long they've spoken it. I doubt there are rules that fit every person out there.
ESB,
"Some Scandinavians (e.g. Swedes/Norwegians) speak perfect English without a trace of an accent even if they've never been to the States and they're over 21. "
Are you sure you can make the difference between AmE and British English accents? The Scandinavians I heard over years had more a British accent than AmE accent. However, these countries along holland are considered englinsh speaking countries, so learn English perhaps in kindergarden.
How this "Blanche, I'm told that they are given a choice between British English and GAE. " is done Jarper?
Just curious
From OH:
I don't know, but I can tell you exactly where I read it.
Rick Steves' "Europe Through the Back Door' has a section on both Oslo and Stockholm, where he mentions Norwegian cousins. He asserts that Norwegians are given a choice between American English and British English, and some of his Norwegian cousins know more slang than he does.
You could look it up.