ah - aw

Curious...   Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:33 pm GMT
Do people who have cot-caught merger distinguish the difference between ah and aw?

Do they have these two phonemes when they speak.
Leasnam   Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:03 pm GMT
I don't distinguish between 'cot' and 'caught' however, but I do distinguish between 'ah' & 'aw'

'ah' is more of a pure a-sound, like in "father" /A/

where 'aw' is more open like in "law" /Q/
wtf   Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:23 pm GMT
people who don't distinguish between cot and caught are retarded. like, really.
Westerner   Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:48 pm GMT
In the West we make no pronunciation difference between "ah" and "aw". We pronounce cot and caught identically, for example. When midwesterners make a distinction between them, we do not hear the difference. (Although we can hear the difference in some east coast accents.) To us, "ah" and "aw" represent the same sound. We could transcribe cot as either "caht" or "cawt"; father as "fahther" or "fawther". We do use both vowels when we speak however. But they are completely interchangeable. If I said the word "cot" to a person that makes the distinction, they might either hear it as cot or caught. It might vary in the same sentence even. However this merger rarely causes confusion except for the names Don and Dawn.
same   Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:52 pm GMT
Also I've noticed that most people don't notice or point out the merger to me. I've been. To the Midwest and nobody has thought that I had an accent at all--even when I remark about their accent. Because of the Northern cities vowel shift, most midwesterners sound rather accented to Westerners and Canadians.
Jasper   Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:44 pm GMT
"When midwesterners make a distinction between them, we do not hear the difference."

I notice the difference right away, but I am a Southern transplant who's lived in the West for nearly thirty years, so my hearing apparatus might be different from a native Westerner.
Leasnam   Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:19 pm GMT
To tell the truth, the two sounds are so close anyway as to make no real difference. It's just an accent in my opinion.

It's not like one is pronouncing "coot" and "kite" or some sh*t like that. I mean really...
Westerner   Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:08 pm GMT
@Jasper,
Yes, if you were a native Westerner you wouldn't hear the difference if a midwesterner with a conservative accent said the two words. You might be able to hear the difference if they had a very strong northern cities vowel shift, as cot would sound like "cat", and "caught" would sound like cot/caught. You also might be able to hear the difference in many east coast accents, as their caught vowel can sound almost like cohawt, or like in coe-aw-fee for "coffee".
CID   Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:12 pm GMT
<<as their caught vowel can sound almost like cohawt, or like in coe-aw-fee for "coffee". >>

Yes, like those in NYC where it actually sounds a lot like they're saying "cort/co-ahrt", "corffee/co-arfee"
Kess   Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:51 am GMT
"When midwesterners make a distinction between them, we do not hear the difference."


The difference is more striking in sytagms, for example in Cot/Caught merged areas these expressions have the same vowel:

hot dog [hAtdAg in California, hAtdOg in NYC, h{tdAg or hatdQg in Chicago]
coffee shop [kAfiSAp in California, kOfiSAp in NYC, kQfiSap or kAfiS{p in Chicago]
small doll [smAl dAl (or smQl dQl by some) in California, smOl dAl in NYC]
Kess   Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:56 am GMT
As you can see, the way a person from the Great Lakes Area pronounces HOT DOG and COFFEE SHOP can sound like ''HAT DOG'' and ''COFFEE SHAP'' to a nonLaker ear (be it CCmerged [LA, Vermont, Arizona, NewFoundland] or CCunmerged [NYC, Maryland, Alabama]).
Curious...   Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:50 pm GMT
To be more specific, what about ah like "Ah! That's right"
and aw as in "Aw, that's cute!"
Westerner   Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:05 pm GMT
@Kess,
But only people that have a strong northern cities vowel shift. If they have a fairly conservative accent, Westerners will not notice the difference at all betweeen them. We might even pronounce the words differently ourselves sometimes: Sometimes I pronounce "hot dog" as [hQt_} dAg].

@Curious,
I distinguish them only in spelling. In speech I can tell by context and tone of voice, but not by vowel quality. "Ah" vs. "Aw" was simply another spelling rule to learn. They both represented the same sound, along with "au" as in "audience", or "o" as in "tot", or "ou" as in "bought".
Westerner   Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:10 pm GMT
@Kess,
But only people that have a strong northern cities vowel shift. If they have a fairly conservative accent, Westerners will not notice the difference at all betweeen them. We might even pronounce the words differently ourselves sometimes: Sometimes I pronounce "hot dog" as [hQt_} dAg].

@Curious,
I distinguish them only in spelling. In speech I can tell by context and tone of voice, but not by vowel quality. "Ah" vs. "Aw" was simply another spelling rule to learn. They both represented the same sound, along with "au" as in "audience", or "o" as in "tot", or "ou" as in "bought".
LivingStone   Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:42 pm GMT
''If they have a fairly conservative accent, Westerners will not notice the difference at all betweeen them.''

If the Midwestern is conservative, it will have rounded [Q] in dog, coffee which will make the vowel difference HOT DOG : COFFEE SHOP even sharper:

HOT [unrounded] DOG [rounded]
COFFEE [rounded] SHOP [unrounded]