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Why are Chinese characters still used?
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GaaGaa Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:15 am GMT
Please let me tell you why Chinese Latinisation still has been popular in China. From Chūnqiū Shídài (Spring & Autumn Period) to Sòng Cháo (Song Dynasty), approximately between 770 BC and 1279 AD, China was almost the strongest empire in the world, as it had a long lead on civilization, characters, mathematics (π=3.1415926), geometry (together with ancient Egypt), technical skills, arts and crafts, moral and living philosophy, over European and other Asian countries. Four Inventions (sì dà fā míng) of ancient China also made a profound and far-ranging impact on the world history. Especially during Song Dynasty, our national economy had exceeded nearly all other countries in GDP & per capita GDP before its downfall, good time doesn't last long, and brutality always conquers civilization, no doubt both Mongolian Yuan Dynasty (Yuán Cháo) and Manchulian Qing Dynasty (Qīng Cháo) were indeed 2 disastrous and declining periods of Dark Ages of China. Particularly, after Opium Wars, China suddenly became a piece of delicious Pizza which was divided up at random by powerful countries. From then on, a series of battles came one after another, overthrowing the Qing government, fighting against Japanese invaders, Chinese Civil War between Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) and Chinese Communist Party (GCD), then Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution launched crazily by CCP. As a result of inferiority complex, some Chinese turned to adore excessively everything about Occident, and meanwhile, began to belittle the achievements of China. Objectively speaking, the nature of language and character can't be compared with science and technology, we can’t say that, Latin alphabet really fits in with Chinese written form more advanced or more effective than characters system. The problems caused by deficiencies in science & technology development, or anything else, are absolutely not the reasons that Chinese has to be Latinised as possible as it can. And I think it’s worth mentioning that, China has got a rich cultural heritage, an abundant useful books which were completely written in regular script characters, they’re rather more important (at least, as important as) than those which were usually published from a perspective of Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, or Deng Xiaoping Theory after 1949, so, once Chinese characters were reluctantly Latinised, the date that people started using Latin alphabet, would be a dividing line between real China and latinised China, and when the time comes, that day would cut off China’s civilization and history, then replace them to create a brand new beginning with something doesn’t belong to China, despite the fact that latinisation might cause people (not only native Chinese, but also foreign learners) a lot of trouble in the long run. BTW, if you need any help with Mandarin study, please feel free to let me know.
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Sheer bullshi*T!
To: Shuimo
《Sheer bullshi*T!》
Re: I'd rather see you answer me back with detailed reasons, than always abuse or offend people.
GaaGaa Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:00 am GMT
To: Shuimo
《Sheer bullshi*T!》
Re: I'd rather see you answer me back with detailed reasons, than always abuse or offend people.
===========================
You can get to Shuimo for lively discussion here:
http://forums.ec.europa.eu/debateeurope/viewforum.php?f=9
To: Shuimo（水墨）
《You can get to Shuimo for lively discussion here》
我也是中国人，不喜欢和别人争论政治，最多争论一下语言文字，你给的网址我去看了，但对它不太感兴趣。争论既费神、也费时，如果你赞成汉字拉丁化，那我真的无话可说了。悲哀呀！
GaaGaa Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:16 am GMT
To: Shuimo（水墨）
《You can get to Shuimo for lively discussion here》
我也是中国人，不喜欢和别人争论政治，最多争论一下语言文字，你给的网址我去看了，但对它不太感兴趣。争论既费神、也费时，如果你赞成汉字拉丁化，那我真的无话可说了。悲哀呀！
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When did Shuimo say in favor of Latinization of the Chinese language?
Nope! ! 1000% impossible!
Never can I love enough my beatutiful and poetic Chinese language! I assure you!
Discussions on politics is such fun!
I have to say sorry for your inability to arouse and interest yrself in political matters, hence incurring such a loss of fun in life!
There are too many Chinese nationalists on this thread, and they're deeply unpleasant, of course, like all nationalists. Some seem as geniunely surprised to find that not all people see China as the center of the universe as some of the more rednecky Americans at realizing that the rest of the world does not tend to see America as the shining city on a hill.
Yes, the Chinese civilization is old, but no older than the European one, and the Middle Eastern and Egyptian civilizations are, of course, even older (if we somewhat subjectively equate civilization with writing).
Now, I don't think learning to read Chinese is substantially harder than learning to read English. Read this:
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Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
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If you're a fluent English speaker, it will take you as long to read this scrambled text as the 'correctly' arranged one. Do you know what that means? That means that we read English more or less as a pictographic system as well, looking for familiar "strokes", and recognizing a word on sight, without breaking it up into sounds.
As for word formations in English and Chinese, they're nearly identical. Weird words like "handball" (a specific game, not all games that are played with hands and balls), "fireplace" (a specific installation in a private home, not all places that have fires), "eggplant" and others are formed exactly as new terms are formed in Chinese, so I don't really see what all the fuss is about.
I still am not a huge fan of Chinese overall, mostly because of its peculiar phonetics and phonotactics. Sound-by-sound Chinese made itself into a simple, primitive language: no consonant clusters, syllables cannot end in consonants except for -n and -ng, etc. Then it tried to make itself more complex by coming up with the WORST (yeah, I'm very subjective) invention in the history of human languages: the tonal system (meaning Chinese cannot replicate the use of tones as non-verbal communication tool in non-tonal languages), and yet still couldn't come up with enough distinct syllables - and ended up being the language with perhaps the largest number of homophones in the world - to the point that the Chinese speakers themselves objectively remark that spoken Chinese is far less understandable than written Chinese because written, pictographic, Chinese has many more distinct words (that shi-shi-shi poem was very educational).
So how about this. I love Chinese grammar, I like Chinese characters, I like word formation in Chinese (same as English, to be honest)... I hate the phonotactics of the Chinese language..
This forum is all about subjective preferences, right? So, I'll say that Chinese sounds like some awful meowing to me.
Start using plenty more consonants at the beginning and end of syllables, lose the tones, and you'll have an elegant, simple yet powerful and flexible language.
> Tionghoa Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:03 am GMT
To: J.C.
Chopsticks, 箸: ancient Chinese, also in Japanese, but 筷子: only used in modern mandarin. This is the reason why I prefer Wenyan and Traditional characters. <
In some Southern Chinese Languages also use "箸" (chopsticks). This character may be originate in the South of Yangtze-Kiang districts in ancient time.
>> GaaGaa Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:15 am GMT
From Chūnqiū Shídài (Spring & Autumn Period) to Sòng Cháo (Song Dynasty), approximately between 770 BC and 1279 AD,
China was almost the strongest empire in the world, <<
1. states:
The Spring & Autumn Period (770 BC -476 BC, Mandarin: Chūnqiū Shídài) is not an empire. In that ancient period, there existed many different nationalities who building many different small states in the territories of modern China as similar as the Europe.
(as it had a long lead on civilization, characters, mathematics (π=3.1415926) (together with ancient Greek), geometry (together with ancient Egypt), technical skills, arts and crafts, moral and living philosophy, over European and other Asian countries. Four Inventions (Mandarin: sì dà fā míng) of ancient China also made a profound and far-ranging impact on the world history.)
2. empires:
In Middle Age, the Great Song (960 AD - 1279 AD, or Song Dynasty, Mandarin: Sòng Cháo) is an empire, but it is a very small empire than other empires in history of China such as Qin, Han, Tang, Yuen or Qing etc.
(Especially during the Song Dynasty, the South Song Dynasty only controlled the territories of South China, our national economy had exceeded nearly all other countries in GDP & per capita GDP before its downfall,)
I am laughing at the bad blood that sometimes surfaces between language lovers. Each language is a system that benefits its users, each has its supposed advantages (which are hard to prove), and each presents difficulties and confusions to newcomers. "Chinese is so hard, so it's dumb and proof of that culture's bankruptcy" says one random person, while a billion people use the language to their advantage. I haven't heard a "Chinese attack on English" but I suppose it would be similar to what I heard Heidegger (a German philosopher) say about other languages (by implication): (paraphrasing) "German and ancient Greek are the best languages to do philosophy with, since they are superior". By implication, all other languages are insufficient for adequate thought. This is the basic attitude used in attacks on language. They are usually unfounded and made purely out of a lack of experience or knowledge or self-awareness. And many of us already know that probably.
To: GaaGaa
[轉] 「五四新文化運動」
當年白話文運動發起者的看法:
錢玄同1918年4月在給陳獨秀的信《中國今後之文字問題》中說:
「廢孔學不可不先廢漢文；欲驅除一般人之幼稚的、野蠻的、頑固的思想，尤不可不先廢漢文。……此種文字，斷斷不能適用於二十世紀之新時代。……欲使中國不亡，欲使中國民族為二十世紀文明之民族，必以廢孔學、滅道教為根本之解決，而廢記載孔門學說及道教妖言之漢文，尤為根本解決之根本解決。」 （《新青年》第四卷第四號發表為《中國今後之文字問題》）
陳獨秀在《答書》中說道:
「中國文字既難傳載新事新理，且為腐毒思想之巢窟，廢之誠不足惜。」
胡適在《跋語》中說道：
「獨秀先生主張；先廢漢文，且存漢語，而改用羅馬字母書之的辦法，我極贊成。」
魯迅則在《關於新文字的答問》一文中提出:
「漢字不滅，中國必亡。……方塊漢字真是愚民政策的利器。……漢字也是中國勞苦大眾身上的一個結核，病菌都潛伏在裏面，倘不首先除去它，結果衹有自己死。」
瞿秋白則提出「漢字落後論」，痛罵漢字:
「真正是世界上最齷齪、最惡劣、最混蛋的中世紀的毛坑。」
田炳信:
「漢民族所特有的文化之魂是兩塊，一是儒教，二是道教。一個朝代的倒塌，不一定是滋養了中華民族幾千年文化的倒塌，那衹是一個公司的破產，一個董事會的重組。」
正是有了瞿秋白、胡適、魯迅對中國漢字的激烈抨擊，才導致郭沫若、蔡元培、吳玉章、林伯渠等著名的六百多位學者共同簽署宣言消滅漢字。他們在宣言中寫道：
「漢字如獨輪車，羅馬字母如汽車，新文字如飛機。」
Chinese characters have unified the Chinese people (native speakers of hundreds of different dialects) for over five thousand years. Whereas the inhabitants of the Roman Empire (those parts still speaking Romance languages) have split into separate countries and regions speaking and writing Portuguese, Castillian Spanish, Catalonian, French, Italian, Romanian, etc., the Chinese people are still one people with one written language and now one primary spoken language Mandarin.
Your quotes from the May 4th movement are irrelevant as today's Chinese language has vastly changed.
not dragon: "Chinese characters have unified the Chinese people".
Yes, it has unified Chinese people so much that they now have no idea where they come from. As a people, today's Chinese people are like adopted orphans: they have no idea about their biological parents.
If you have some time, take a look at original text of Tale of Kieu in Vietnamese Chu Nom script. http://nomna.org/index.php?IDcat=13&cat=2
Take for instance, the first two characters, which mean "one-hundred" and "years" in Vietnamese (trăm năm). What do you see? These are two simple words in Vietnamese basic vocabulary. But their characters are complicated. Why? Because the simple characters have been taken by classical Chinese. The complexity of Chu Nom reflects the underlying colonialism: things are made easy for the master Chinese colonizers/rulers, while Vietnamese native speakers have to adopt a more complex script.
That's how China was unified. On the surface each dialect was supposed to be writable with Chinese characters. In practice that never happened. It could not have happened. Chinese characters gave the locals a dream that they too could write their languages, but that was only a dream. It was more like a lie. In the process, the richness of cultural diversity was destroyed, and original languages sinified.
Because Vietnam became separated from China, today they have preserved their culture, identity, and language. While the Chinese, especially the Southern Chinese, have totally lost memory of who they were, where they came from, what were their original languages like.
You can still find unity regardless of diversity. "E pluribus unum," that's the motto of United States, and "United in diversity" was adopted as motto for the European Union in 2000.
Give people back their history, stop hiding the real history, stop lying. Chinese people deserve to know their real biological parents. Scholars in all four fields of anthropology, be them 凌純聲 Ling Shun-Sheng (social anthropology), 白保罗 Paul K. Benedict (linguistics), 苏炳琦 Su Binqi (archeology), Luigi Cavalli-Sforza (biological anthropology), have all contributed to our understanding of the real picture. These are all top names in their respective fields. Read their work, and get a new picture of what really happened in China.
Little tadpole said:
Give people back their history, stop hiding the real history, stop lying....
Response:
All human beings should know their original biological parents (250,000 to 500,000 years ago) --- we're all descendants from black people from Africa. So now you know that, does that change the way you look at things?
India is a country similar to China. The most popular Indian language there is Hindi but there is resistance to making Hindi the "mandarin" of India especially in the southern parts such as Tamil Nadu, etc., English is therefore the lingua franca in all parts of India - North and South. Perhaps China should follow suit....
Why learn Mandarin when English is the official language and lingua franca in the west, India and China!?!!!
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