Coil-curl merger in New York City

Bill   Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:44 pm GMT
Is the coil-curl merger real? I thought it was an exaggeration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coil-curl_merger
Terry   Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:14 pm GMT
Yes, it's true but more so in the less affluent sections of the city. I've never heard a Manhattanite say "toity-toid" for thirty-third.
Guest   Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:05 pm GMT
Well the article implies it no longer exists unless the speaker was born before 1950... even then, it's highly unlikely for the speaker to have such a pronunciation.
Terry   Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:43 am GMT
<<Well the article implies it no longer exists unless the speaker was born before 1950... even then, it's highly unlikely for the speaker to have such a pronunciation. >>

I don't agree. I traveled to NYC a lot this past year and I heard this accent.
Guest   Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:52 am GMT
There are exceptions but it's not surprising to read that it is moribund.
Tom23   Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:06 pm GMT
In most of the "gentrified" neighbourhoods such a pronunciation would be extremely rare, indeed, non-existent (at least among residents of the community). These days, most yuppies (even the ones born and raised in the NYC metro area) speak GAE. There was an article in the NY Times many, many years ago which began, humourously: "If you've spoken to a New Yorker recently you may have noticed that most people don't tawk dis way no maw". Without sounding racist, I must admit that this type of accent today is more or less confined to certain Italian-Americans living in certain neighbourhoods in the 5 boroughs, on the south shore of Nassau County, and in parts of New Jersey. That does not mean that ALL Italian-Americans use nor does it mean that ALL who use it are It. Ams. it is also used more by older people who grew up in NYC than it is by younger people. It is used by some older Jews (not the ones who came from Germany or Austria in the 1940's who speak with a german accent bordering on RP in a few cases). it is used by many native-born blue collar workers. However, this accent is NOT used by NATIVE born Asian-Americans who ALL speak GAE nor is it used much by children of Eastern European immigrants who learned English in school and by watching TV shows where GAE is used.


Even those few younger people who DO use it have some control over it. They broaden it when they want to sound tough and they tone it down when they need to sound more professional and less like a wise-guy (like when in court).

I grew up in NYC and I didn't even know there was such a thing as a NY accent till I was practically in my very late teens. I spoke a different language at home, learned GAE in school and through Sesame Street, and went to a specialized High School and College where nearly everyone used GAE. Some older people or some Americans I meet while travelling will occasionally comment on my total lack of a NY accent but most people don't because they know that that is just a stereotype.

Incidentally, blacks in NYC use Black English (except for those few who use GAE or are from africa or the Caribbean and most native born Hispanics use soething close to it - they do NOT speak with a traditional NY accent).

In addition, NOBODY says "coil' for "curl" anymore except for Bugs Bunny and Andrew Dice Clay. In fact, I have never encountered an "u becomes oi" type of NY accent - ever.

A typical NY accent is still used by the majority of people in the pelham Bay - throgs Neck section of the Bronx, which happens to be mostly italian American. Go into any store or establishment there or stop people and ask them for directions if you really want to hear a true NY accent. Do not expect to hear it on the Upper East Side.

Oh, and do NOT try to draw a parallel between New yorkese and Cockney 9in London). New Yorkese, these days, is confined to certain neighbourhoods and certain people and there is a strong move towards GAE, while Cockney is spoken by nearly everyone I encountered in London - and I didn't even go into the East End - in london there seems to be a move away from RP. Indeed, RP or near-RP is spoken in some of the better neighbourhoods and is sometimes encountered in the central area but RP is the exception rather than the rule. In the NY metro area these days, GAE is pretty much the rule with New Yorkese being the exception.
Terry   Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:12 am GMT
Thoughtful post, Tom23. Good points and it's true, actually, that the people that said "boid" for bird were probably older and etc.

<<A typical NY accent is still used by the majority of people in the pelham Bay - throgs Neck section of the Bronx, which happens to be mostly italian American. Go into any store or establishment there or stop people and ask them for directions if you really want to hear a true NY accent. Do not expect to hear it on the Upper East Side.>>

Oh never on the east side. :) Nothing but the best.
Tom23   Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:17 am GMT
Also, NYC firefighters (at least on every occasion when I've heard one speaking on TV) are probably the strongest (and perhaps one of the last) bastions of "New Yorkese". The same is the case with many (but by no means all) police officers.

In short, New Yorkese is not anywhere near as pervasive in NY as Cockney is in London. I think today that among native-born speakers (especially younger speakers) in the NY metro area, GAE speakers greatly outnumber "New Yorkese" speakers. In greater London, though, Cockney speakers by far outnumber RP speakers. Cockney is alive and well and will probably continue to be used extensively for many, many,many years. However, that is outside the scope of this discussion.
Terry   Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:57 am GMT
<<Also, NYC firefighters (at least on every occasion when I've heard one speaking on TV) are probably the strongest (and perhaps one of the last) bastions of "New Yorkese". The same is the case with many (but by no means all) police officers.>>

Yes, now that you mention it, I recall during the 911 ordeal hearing a lot of firefighters on TV and they had the old accent. I noticed a lot of truck drivers used this accent, probably older ones though.

<Cockney is alive and well and will probably continue to be used extensively for many, many,many years. However, that is outside the scope of this discussion. >>

Do you think so? I'd be interested in hearing about it.
Tom23   Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:11 am GMT
With regard to:<<Oh never on the east side. :) Nothing but the best. >>

Part of the reason this is so is because Upper East Side residents are predominantly white, affluent, white collar, and educated.

Another part of the reason is that many Upper East Side residents are originally from somewhere else in the US. This is true, to some degree, of many neighbourhoods in Manhattan.