Linguistic innovators

,   Tue May 05, 2009 11:29 pm GMT
Slang, because they appear in speech but not in writing. They have little meaning other than to fill in the gaps in the person's speech while they are thinking of something else to say. So they can be compared with grunts, groans and farts.
Mufti   Wed May 06, 2009 7:26 am GMT
<So following this exhaustive investigation, I conclude that invariant tags are not a linguistic innovation but rather an unpleasant and lazy, slang way of speaking.

Slang, because they appear in speech but not in writing. They have little meaning other than to fill in the gaps in the person's speech while they are thinking of something else to say. So the can be compared with grunts, groans and farts. >

Obvious you're no linguist. Now try Google the expression "discourse markers"? And, when you've done that, tell us why you think tags, such as "aren't we", "will you", etc. are examples of lazy usage?
Robin Michael   Wed May 06, 2009 7:04 pm GMT
"Traditionally, some of the words or phrases that were considered discourse markers were treated as "fillers" or "expletives": words or phrases that had no function at all."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_marker

Linguistic innovators

I do not think I was that far off the mark. I think that this sort of discussion is quite appropriate to antimoon. Particularly in telephone conversations, when one party cannot see the other party, the unseen party makes little noises to reassure the party speaking, that he/she is still there and listening.

Is this a source of linguistic innovation?

I don't think so.


I think that it is quite reasonable to ask experts to explain themselves in plain language. I think this is particularly true of foreign linguistic experts in English who lack the intuitive understanding of the language that a native speaker has.

I would like to add that native speakers often make grammatical and spelling mistakes. However these are different from the mistakes made by people using English as a second language.

Native speakers are quite likely to confuse 'advice' and 'advise'. However only a child would say 'advices' which is quite a common mistake amongst non-native speakers.

I have to be careful because 'advises' is OK.

Unfortunately the Australian government disagrees with me.

workplace.gov.au - Workplace relations advices
These Advices are issued by the Department of Education, Employment and Workplace Relations on various workplace relations issues of relevance to Australian ...
www.workplace.gov.au/workplace/Organisation/Government/Federal/WRAdvices/ - 11k - Cached - Similar pages
Damian London SW15   Wed May 06, 2009 7:35 pm GMT
George Bernard Shaw - just GBS is sufficient as everybody knows it's him to whom you refer - an Irishman who spent all of his adult life in England and finally snuffed it at the grand old age of 94 which was pretty good going way back in 1950 when the old geezer shuffled off this mortal coil at his home in the tiny Hertfordshire village of Ayot St Lawrence.

His home is now a sort of Shavian shrine and open to the public and goes by the name of Shaw's Corner. Although buried in the depths of the green, lush Hertfordshire countryside it is little more than an hour's drive from Central London, traffic permitting.

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-findaplace/w-shawscorner/w-shawscorner-shaw/w-shawscorner-shaw-ayot_st_lawrence.htm

One of the best known of Shaw's plays is "Pygmalion" - the familiar story of the ill bred guttersnipe London Cockney girl Eliza Doolittle who was transformed into an elegant lady by Professor Higgins. It was the basis of the musical show "My Fair Lady".

When "Pygmalion" was first performed on the London West End stage in 1913 the staid audiences of the day were literally shocked to the core by Eliza's famous words "Not bloody likely!" People literally had the vapours and a few ladies apparently fainted on the spot on hearing Eliza's words being belted out from the stage.

How times have changed! I wonder what those people would have made of a whole lot of performances which have taken place on the London stage since those days almost a ton years ago - certainly since the stage performance censorship of the Lord Chamberlain's Office was abolished in 1968, since when practically "Anything Goes" (no - not that one!) on the West End stage, and elsewhere in the UK for that matter.

As with our own dear Shakespeare, GBS was well known for his sayings, which included these:

"A lifetime of happiness! No man could bear it, it would be hell on earth!"

"Few people think more than two or three times a year. I have made an international reputation for myself by thinking once or twoice a week".

"I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation".

"Lack of money is the root of all evil!" (That one is quite topical in the current economic climate!)

And how apt this has often proved to be over time for most of us I reckon:

"If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable Man must be of learning from experience!"

In keeping with this Forum this one is really well known but Shaw really said it first:

"England and America are two countries separated by a common language!"

And talking about the guys who live way over the ocean in America:

"Americans adore me and will go on adoring me until I say something nice about them!"

But this one puzzles me a wee bit:

"An American has no sense of privacy. He does not know what it means. There is no such thing in the country!"

Surely he was wrong there? Isn't America founded on private ownership? Bloody hell - even their health service is "private" is it not? Of course that may well change if a certain bloke has his way...... ;-)

Cheers!
Damian London SW15   Wed May 06, 2009 7:52 pm GMT
Ayot St Lawrence.....the village in Hertfordshire - it's close to the M1 motorway, to the east of Harpenden. As it says in the blurb above the "Ayot" bit comes from Old English and means an "island", or some kind of "oasis" although of course a true "oasis" simply doesn't occur in the UK as we have no need for them at all. It must also mean, therefore, some kind of isolated refuge, which Shaw's old home in Ayot St Lawrence most certainly was and still is.

"Ayot" is apparently pronounced as we say the number "eight", and another really well known "ayot" is the small island in the middle of the River Thames at Chiswick, in West London - four miles or so away from where I am right now in Putney, and appropriately called Chiswick Ayot, and which features each and every year during the University Boat Race which runs from here in Putney all the way upstream on the Thames to Mortlake - when Cambridge take on Oxford each spring in the boat race.
Leasnam   Wed May 06, 2009 7:53 pm GMT
<<Has "isn't" always been pronounced as "innit" then? >>

I say it as "idnit"
MrPedantic   Wed May 06, 2009 11:26 pm GMT
<They have little meaning other than to fill in the gaps in the person's speech...So they can be compared with...farts>

I have to admit, that isn't a discourse marker I've ever encountered. I must listen out for it.

<However only a child would say 'advices' which is quite a common mistake amongst non-native speakers.>

"Advices" is not necessarily a mistake; it can mean "business communication(s)", for instance:

1. She was to go to the St. Launce's Bank and take a sum of money which they had received private advices to pay her. (Thomas Hardy)

MrP
Mufti   Fri May 08, 2009 11:15 am GMT
This can be plural.

ADVICE, com. law. A letter containing information of any circumstances unknown to the person to whom it is written; when goods are forwarded by sea or land, the letter transmitted to inform the consignee of the fact, is termed advice of goods, or letter of advice. When one merchant draws upon another, he generally advises him of the fact. These letters are intended to give notice of the facts they contain.