What is wrong with this Robin Michael? To me he comes across as some kind of deluded half-brained pseudo-intellectual with very little grip of reality.
Why do non-native speakers overrate their English so much?
I don't get why he posts lists of synonyms... It is odd to say the least. Does he think that we don't know how to use a thesaurus? There are numerous thesauruses on the internet which are easy to use and effective. I even have a high quality paper thesaurus which I am an expert at using.
Besides, he doesn't even list particularly interesting synonyms. Does he think we don't know these rather simple words like sensitive, insensitive, arrogant, touchy or edgy? They are rather standard words, hardly deserving of having a topic derailed for a discussion of them, I mean, if you don't know them, look in a dictionary. One of the rules of this site is "not to ask for the definitions of words when you can just open a dictionary". Apparently, Robin Michael hasn't read the rules.
Oh by the way, here are some exciting words, let's discuss them! I can post the detailed definitions if you want!
one
two
three
four
five
six
seven
Amazing words aren't they! Let's discuss them! Bye for now!
augle
Besides, he doesn't even list particularly interesting synonyms. Does he think we don't know these rather simple words like sensitive, insensitive, arrogant, touchy or edgy? They are rather standard words, hardly deserving of having a topic derailed for a discussion of them, I mean, if you don't know them, look in a dictionary. One of the rules of this site is "not to ask for the definitions of words when you can just open a dictionary". Apparently, Robin Michael hasn't read the rules.
Oh by the way, here are some exciting words, let's discuss them! I can post the detailed definitions if you want!
one
two
three
four
five
six
seven
Amazing words aren't they! Let's discuss them! Bye for now!
augle
I would like to reply to 'Some Yank' who wrote:
"What is wrong with this Robin Michael? To me he comes across as some kind of deluded half-brained pseudo-intellectual with very little grip of reality."
When President Bush was in power, this was what people thought of American foreign policy.
"deluded half-brained pseudo-intellectual with very little grip of reality"
The doctrine of 'American Exceptionalism' gave Americans the right to torture other nationalities that they had seized in various countries around the world. "Some Yank" has got a lot to answer for. "Some Yank" has got a lot to live down.
"What is wrong with this Robin Michael? To me he comes across as some kind of deluded half-brained pseudo-intellectual with very little grip of reality."
When President Bush was in power, this was what people thought of American foreign policy.
"deluded half-brained pseudo-intellectual with very little grip of reality"
The doctrine of 'American Exceptionalism' gave Americans the right to torture other nationalities that they had seized in various countries around the world. "Some Yank" has got a lot to answer for. "Some Yank" has got a lot to live down.
To augle
When I posted a list of words, I was just pointing out that "some people" are very sensitive about perceived insults. What I would like is to have a proper discussion rather than a series of personal attacks by anonymous people, who have not contributed before.
Your post is very reminiscent of posts by 'a demotivator'. Such people, as their name suggests, have nothing positive to contribute.
When I posted a list of words, I was just pointing out that "some people" are very sensitive about perceived insults. What I would like is to have a proper discussion rather than a series of personal attacks by anonymous people, who have not contributed before.
Your post is very reminiscent of posts by 'a demotivator'. Such people, as their name suggests, have nothing positive to contribute.
To Robin Michael,
You have nothing to contribute either. A completely irrelevant rambling is not a contribution, it is a distraction.
You have nothing to contribute either. A completely irrelevant rambling is not a contribution, it is a distraction.
Ahhhh! The good old 'insult America' tactic.
Always useful when you have nothing else worth saying.
Always useful when you have nothing else worth saying.
So getting back on the original topic, if anyone still remembers what that was:
I don't think this is an inherently linguistic question. Rather, I would suggest that it's a special case of a well-known phenomenon: it is at best difficult for people to accurately assess their own abilities at a task.
Citation:
http://www.citeulike.org/user/yangjustinc/article/987660
Full text (American Psychological Association):
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
I don't think this is an inherently linguistic question. Rather, I would suggest that it's a special case of a well-known phenomenon: it is at best difficult for people to accurately assess their own abilities at a task.
Citation:
http://www.citeulike.org/user/yangjustinc/article/987660
Full text (American Psychological Association):
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
Oh c'mon Feati, who the hell wants to imitate the British and their foppish accents. I speak the IIA and am clear and intelligible to anyone who knows the language. Need I know more?
Regards,
Daniel
PS: IIA= the Indian International Accent; spoken by Indians and understood across the world.
Regards,
Daniel
PS: IIA= the Indian International Accent; spoken by Indians and understood across the world.
Apologies, for the "irrelevant rambling"...you guys continue please...but please continue conducting yourselves on the high plane of liguistic dignity that you guys espouse so much in your discussions and hold in so much more esteem in your actions :-)
Dan
Dan
It isn't just non-native speakers who overrate their English. Some speakers of other languages greatly exaggerate their skills in languages too, imo.
When I compare ordinary Dutch, German, and Scandinavian speakers of English to some people who post examples on youtube of other languages, I would say that the Dutch, German and Scandinavian speakers are actually better at English than some people who claim to speak Japanese or other languages.
I think the trick is to speak a language that very few people know, so:
a. natives will praise you because you bothered to say things like "I'm Jack. I live in San Francisco. I like studying Azerbaijani. I like to eat. Thank you very much!"
b. Non-natives will be impressed because you are not speaking your native language.
Honestly, some of the videos I've heard are on about that level. When you compare the content of sentences of a Dutch speaker of English, it's a relief. No, it isn't always perfect, but It's not "I like to eat" level.
When I compare ordinary Dutch, German, and Scandinavian speakers of English to some people who post examples on youtube of other languages, I would say that the Dutch, German and Scandinavian speakers are actually better at English than some people who claim to speak Japanese or other languages.
I think the trick is to speak a language that very few people know, so:
a. natives will praise you because you bothered to say things like "I'm Jack. I live in San Francisco. I like studying Azerbaijani. I like to eat. Thank you very much!"
b. Non-natives will be impressed because you are not speaking your native language.
Honestly, some of the videos I've heard are on about that level. When you compare the content of sentences of a Dutch speaker of English, it's a relief. No, it isn't always perfect, but It's not "I like to eat" level.
<<It isn't just non-native speakers who overrate their English. Some speakers of other languages greatly exaggerate their skills in languages too, imo.
When I compare ordinary Dutch, German, and Scandinavian speakers of English to some people who post examples on youtube of other languages, I would say that the Dutch, German and Scandinavian speakers are actually better at English than some people who claim to speak Japanese or other languages.
I think the trick is to speak a language that very few people know, so:
a. natives will praise you because you bothered to say things like "I'm Jack. I live in San Francisco. I like studying Azerbaijani. I like to eat. Thank you very much!"
b. Non-natives will be impressed because you are not speaking your native language.
Honestly, some of the videos I've heard are on about that level. When you compare the content of sentences of a Dutch speaker of English, it's a relief. No, it isn't always perfect, but It's not "I like to eat" level. >>
I suppose everyone has a different definition of fluency. I can go to Germany and interact with Germans with ease but I know I've still got a lot of learning to do. However, some of my friends hear me speak German and then tell me I'm totally fluent, beacause I have skills which are alien to them.
In the UK, we are used to hearing Dutch and Scandanvian people speaking pretty much flawless English so when hear, for example, an Italian grappling with the language, we tend to use terms like "broken English" when the guy in question might actually have a reasonably good knowledge of the language.
I agree with the point about speaking a language that not a lot of people know. I learned a little Hungarian before a business trip to Budapest and the locals were full of praise and encouragement whenever I tried to use it. But this can be counter-productive as well. A colleague of mine spent a year in Japan and made some progress with the language. The trouble was, the Japanese were so taken aback at a European speaking their language that they fell over themselves trying to praise her and refused to correct her mistakes, which would have helped the girl immensely.
When I compare ordinary Dutch, German, and Scandinavian speakers of English to some people who post examples on youtube of other languages, I would say that the Dutch, German and Scandinavian speakers are actually better at English than some people who claim to speak Japanese or other languages.
I think the trick is to speak a language that very few people know, so:
a. natives will praise you because you bothered to say things like "I'm Jack. I live in San Francisco. I like studying Azerbaijani. I like to eat. Thank you very much!"
b. Non-natives will be impressed because you are not speaking your native language.
Honestly, some of the videos I've heard are on about that level. When you compare the content of sentences of a Dutch speaker of English, it's a relief. No, it isn't always perfect, but It's not "I like to eat" level. >>
I suppose everyone has a different definition of fluency. I can go to Germany and interact with Germans with ease but I know I've still got a lot of learning to do. However, some of my friends hear me speak German and then tell me I'm totally fluent, beacause I have skills which are alien to them.
In the UK, we are used to hearing Dutch and Scandanvian people speaking pretty much flawless English so when hear, for example, an Italian grappling with the language, we tend to use terms like "broken English" when the guy in question might actually have a reasonably good knowledge of the language.
I agree with the point about speaking a language that not a lot of people know. I learned a little Hungarian before a business trip to Budapest and the locals were full of praise and encouragement whenever I tried to use it. But this can be counter-productive as well. A colleague of mine spent a year in Japan and made some progress with the language. The trouble was, the Japanese were so taken aback at a European speaking their language that they fell over themselves trying to praise her and refused to correct her mistakes, which would have helped the girl immensely.
>>Guest Wed May 27, 2009 2:59 pm GMT
This discussion is preposterous.
One R.M.; a certified fool and the pariah of this forum, out of sheer malice caused by frustration decides to attack one Travis, well respected long-time member and linguistics authority figure as well as moral institution of this forum; and suddenly there's a discussion ABOUT TRAVIS!!!
I find it obscene. <<
Being on the Travis's side, I still must admit that such point of view is not that good as it may seem. A strong authority is important in teacher-student relationships. Elsewhere, open-minded perception of any message is more beneficial.
PS Travis, I also have a crush on you ;)
This discussion is preposterous.
One R.M.; a certified fool and the pariah of this forum, out of sheer malice caused by frustration decides to attack one Travis, well respected long-time member and linguistics authority figure as well as moral institution of this forum; and suddenly there's a discussion ABOUT TRAVIS!!!
I find it obscene. <<
Being on the Travis's side, I still must admit that such point of view is not that good as it may seem. A strong authority is important in teacher-student relationships. Elsewhere, open-minded perception of any message is more beneficial.
PS Travis, I also have a crush on you ;)
***who the hell wants to imitate the British and their foppish accents***
Foppish? British accents are "foppish"? Now that's a good one! Tell that to the people of Glasgow; the Western Isles and the Highlands; Liverpool; Geordieland; Birmingham and the Black Country (no! - that has zilch to do with race!);Bristol; Kingston-upon-Hull, East Yorkhire and Humberside; Estuarised London; Yorkshire and the Dales; Cardiff, Swansea and the South Wales Valleys; Norfolk and Suffolk; Basildon Billericay and the rest of Estuarised South Essex; Estuarised London; the old salts in the fishing villages of Cornwall and Devon; the sheep farmers of Mid and North Wales; Manchester and Lancashire and everywhere else in these islands with distinctive accents - none of which can remotely be described as "foppish"!
Beau Brummell died in 1840, and the old black and white Gainsborough films in England are now relics of the past which would not look out of place on display in the British Museum and are now only shown on the minority interest TV channels in the mornings and afternoons when those who keep the wheels of the British workforce are out earning a living.
The British people would never expect a foreigner to deliberately adopt any of their accents - not even "posh" English English RP - it would be sheer fakery, and the pretensions of the past are not readily acceptable in the present day generations of younger Britons. Times have greatly moved on in this green and pleasant land.
Foppish? British accents are "foppish"? Now that's a good one! Tell that to the people of Glasgow; the Western Isles and the Highlands; Liverpool; Geordieland; Birmingham and the Black Country (no! - that has zilch to do with race!);Bristol; Kingston-upon-Hull, East Yorkhire and Humberside; Estuarised London; Yorkshire and the Dales; Cardiff, Swansea and the South Wales Valleys; Norfolk and Suffolk; Basildon Billericay and the rest of Estuarised South Essex; Estuarised London; the old salts in the fishing villages of Cornwall and Devon; the sheep farmers of Mid and North Wales; Manchester and Lancashire and everywhere else in these islands with distinctive accents - none of which can remotely be described as "foppish"!
Beau Brummell died in 1840, and the old black and white Gainsborough films in England are now relics of the past which would not look out of place on display in the British Museum and are now only shown on the minority interest TV channels in the mornings and afternoons when those who keep the wheels of the British workforce are out earning a living.
The British people would never expect a foreigner to deliberately adopt any of their accents - not even "posh" English English RP - it would be sheer fakery, and the pretensions of the past are not readily acceptable in the present day generations of younger Britons. Times have greatly moved on in this green and pleasant land.
<<It seems to be universal that with children in a language class, trying to correctly pronounce the words is made fun of. These people are geeks and try-hards. I wonder how much this has to do with the acquisition of a good accent, as opposed to the actual difficulty of the accent? Do you think that if people had no inhibitions about trying their hardest to imitate sounds a significantly higher proportion would reach a near native accent? >>
It's so true. I took a semester of Mandarin my last year in high school, and while we tried hard at the beginning to model our speech on the recordings, it wasn't long before we were modeling our speech on each other, to the point that our teacher shook his head and told us, "Do you realize how thick your accents are?" It wasn't for lack of motivation -- it was an optional class and many of us were half-Chinese and interested in it for its own sake. It was just normal adolescent behavior -- not wanting to sound odd in front of your peers.
On the subject of why native speakers don't dumb down their language in front of Global English speakers, couple of ideas:
1. I had never heard of Global English until now. If I hear someone speaking perfectly intelligible English, I assume they are proficient in all of it until I get a blank look.
2. What would I dumb down? I understand that your vocabulary might not be as extensive as mine, but I don't specifically know which words you know or don't know. Again, I need that blank look. I don't know where to start editing unless I know where I'm starting to lose you.
3. It may not seem like complicated grammar or fancy vocabulary to me. It may seem completely straightforward,simple, everyday speech. Again, I don't necessarily know what your limitations are. Until I do, I will probably speak normally.
4. You may understand more than you let on. You just might have trouble framing a reply. That's pretty common for any learner. And exposing you to the "real" phrasing might be good for you. If you don't follow me, you just have to ask me to clarify, and I can try to put it another way until we achieve mutual comprehension. I have more flexibility in my language than you do. I can think of alternatives -- usually.
It's so true. I took a semester of Mandarin my last year in high school, and while we tried hard at the beginning to model our speech on the recordings, it wasn't long before we were modeling our speech on each other, to the point that our teacher shook his head and told us, "Do you realize how thick your accents are?" It wasn't for lack of motivation -- it was an optional class and many of us were half-Chinese and interested in it for its own sake. It was just normal adolescent behavior -- not wanting to sound odd in front of your peers.
On the subject of why native speakers don't dumb down their language in front of Global English speakers, couple of ideas:
1. I had never heard of Global English until now. If I hear someone speaking perfectly intelligible English, I assume they are proficient in all of it until I get a blank look.
2. What would I dumb down? I understand that your vocabulary might not be as extensive as mine, but I don't specifically know which words you know or don't know. Again, I need that blank look. I don't know where to start editing unless I know where I'm starting to lose you.
3. It may not seem like complicated grammar or fancy vocabulary to me. It may seem completely straightforward,simple, everyday speech. Again, I don't necessarily know what your limitations are. Until I do, I will probably speak normally.
4. You may understand more than you let on. You just might have trouble framing a reply. That's pretty common for any learner. And exposing you to the "real" phrasing might be good for you. If you don't follow me, you just have to ask me to clarify, and I can try to put it another way until we achieve mutual comprehension. I have more flexibility in my language than you do. I can think of alternatives -- usually.
"Being on the Travis's side, I still must admit that such point of view is not that good as it may seem. A strong authority is important in teacher-student relationships. Elsewhere, open-minded perception of any message is more beneficial."
In principle I agree with you. In this particular case you're wrong. There's nothing open-minded about R.M. His perception is that HE is THE TEACHER of this forum. Travis does not suffer from this kind of delusions. Nor do the rest of us.
*is Travis perfect or what? ;)*
In principle I agree with you. In this particular case you're wrong. There's nothing open-minded about R.M. His perception is that HE is THE TEACHER of this forum. Travis does not suffer from this kind of delusions. Nor do the rest of us.
*is Travis perfect or what? ;)*