German language in Germany and Austria.

PARISIEN   Sun May 31, 2009 10:34 am GMT
<< If you speak broken French in Paris, you'll get a big *sigh* as a reaction. People in the capital of France expect everyone to perfectly speak the language of Molière. >>

-- What a moronic comment!
Obviously you've never been there. Everyone is supposed to know that Paris is a place with so many people and accents from all possible backgrounds that it is impossible to spot what a "correct" accent should sound like. All standards have been lost.

The Paris areas used to have distinctive accent for both upper and working classes but they died out in the past twenty years. Paris is an obnoxious chaos of faulty accents.

This is a serious problem because French authority stubbornly refuse to encourage any standard pronounciation, for political correctness' sake. TV announcers with charming (but faulty) Southern accents have been admitted long time ago, now any minority accent is deemed as legitimate as any other.

(Sadly but true, Belgian and Swiss networks still have higher standards)

As a result, most young people are not even able to distinguish 'é' from 'è', 'eu' from 'e', long closed 'a' or 'o' from the short open vowels.

Tthe icing on the cake: with Sarkozy France has nowadays a president who speaks like an illiterate kickball player.
Sandro   Sun May 31, 2009 10:52 am GMT
If you speak broken French in Paris, you'll get a big *sigh* as a reaction. People in the capital of France expect everyone to perfectly speak the language of Molière. It's great incendiary to put more effort in learning the language though.

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?????
I already go to Paris twice, and I only meet nice french people who speak with me in english or french, nobody "sigh". There are bad people everywhere, I don't think Paris is more special than the others big cities.
Lydia   Sun May 31, 2009 10:54 am GMT
with Sarkozy France has nowadays a president who speaks like an illiterate kickball player.

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Oui, mais ça nous change de l'accent hautain de Chirac et compagnie, je n'aime pas beaucoup Sarko mais je préfère 1000 fois ça façon de parler.
étranger   Sun May 31, 2009 11:01 am GMT
ça façon

C'est SA façon de parler. Es-tu illetrée? Rappelle-toi, tu écris dans un forum de langues....
Kendra   Sun May 31, 2009 4:12 pm GMT
As a result, most young people are not even able to distinguish 'é' from 'è', 'eu' from 'e', long closed 'a' or 'o' from the short open vowels.
//

I guess, France is following in the Italian footsteps: people will no longer distinguish between è é ò ó ô...and they will write e' o' for everything just like in Italian (handwriting) LOL
pizz   Sun May 31, 2009 4:14 pm GMT
Despite popular American beliefs, the French are generally understanding of those who speak little or no French (such as myself), and they greatly appreciate and applaud any kind of attempt by visitors to speak the language (even if it's half-assed; they don't mind.) Additionally, many of them do speak the English language or are interested in learning it.

I found that there were, of course, French people who appeared snobby and perhaps rude, but they were surprisingly uncommon. It seems to me that America, more than France, is one of the nations in the world who have a lot of biased attitudes, stereotypes and misconceptions toward certain other countries.
Lydia   Sun May 31, 2009 4:17 pm GMT
ça façon

C'est SA façon de parler. Es-tu illetrée? Rappelle-toi, tu écris dans un forum de langues....

________________

Oh, c'est bon ! t'es un nazi de la grammaire ou quoi ? t'en fais jamais de fautes toi peut-être ? alors arrête de péter plus haut que ton cul!
Et pis t'es con de me faire la morale t'as vu comment t'as écrit illettrée ?!!

bien fait pour ta gueule!
invité   Sun May 31, 2009 4:18 pm GMT
étranger Sun May 31, 2009 11:01 am GMT
ça façon

C'est SA façon de parler. Es-tu illetrée? Rappelle-toi, tu écris dans un forum de langues....

___________________________


illettrée, ça prend 2 "t ", rappelle-toi, tu écris dans un forum de langues....
Marin   Sun May 31, 2009 4:19 pm GMT
Is because Croatian language trought Venetian and Italian influenced all romance languages and consequentely English.

English is some kind of a Croatian dialect.
kiop   Sun May 31, 2009 4:53 pm GMT
Croatian?

What does thisn mean?? Is this a sort of swearword?
Brunhild   Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:53 am GMT
Parisian: <<Everyone is supposed to know that Paris is a place with so many people and accents from all possible backgrounds that it is impossible to spot what a "correct" accent should sound like. All standards have been lost.
The Paris areas used to have distinctive accent for both upper and working classes but they died out in the past twenty years.>>
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Some of this is also true for the German in Berlin today and for distinctive differences of the Berlinois of the past.
I happened to get to know my great grand mother before she died, who was born in Berlin 1902. She told me, that during the time of her childhood and still until the second World War, it was still audible, what part of Berlin a speaker was deriving from. And she repeated some of those sounds and typical accent expressions for me.
Though I have noticed some of these features every now and then in everyday language, I have recognized, that they were mostly used by elderly people, whereas the strongest influence on today´s Berlinois seems to derive from the different developments during the separation of the city (1961-1989), where the western Berlin accents seemed to diminish because of the constant flow of immigrants and visitors, and the eastern Berlin accents rather seemed to include more expressions and sounds from all over Eastern Germany. After the wall came down, many people left and even more seem to have moved in, from not only all over berlin or Germany, but of course from all over the world. The effect on the Berlinois seems to be that it has been narrowed down to only a few distinctive features. On top of that, a noticeable general deplation of the German in everyday language and public media has taken place, which makes it, apart form a certain sound of tonation, almost impossible to say, where a speaker derives from, today - but to me it seems to be more simple and naive, like a childish language, that reminds me of certain comments on the so called Globish English I have read on this forum - and, concerning the Berlin accents I was introduced with as a child, less elaborate, less colourful, less inventive and less humorous. I wouldn´t want to call it a lower class language, because berlin has always been a city of workers, and judging the old accents this way would simply be ignorant. Sometimes I just feel, how limited this language has become, as it can sound downright stupid, with the "globish" influence. What a loss.
MARSEILLAIS   Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:00 pm GMT
Our man from Paris states:
"TV announcers with charming (but faulty) Southern accents have been admitted long time ago, now any minority accent is deemed as legitimate as any other."


Alors notre cher PARISIEN nous parle d'un français du midi charmant mais "défectueux" (la vieille France centralisée resiste toujours) et d'autres accents minoritaires (bretons! alsaciens? corses? catalans? basques?) sans oublier que dans le domaine d'oïl il y aurait aussi des accents défectueux et commençons par la langue parlée à Paris par des parisiens.

Ce qui commence à être accepté en France -la variation régionale du français- est accepté dans toutes les langues de culture.

La France ne sera qu'un vrai pays le jour que le Président de la République nous parle avec un bel accent marseillais cultivé -ce qui ne veut pas dire parler pointu ou un "neutre" qui n'est pas neutre du tout. Il sera élu pour ses vertus -et surtout son programme- et non pas par son accent. Où je mets marseillais vous pouvez le changer pour n'importe quel accent qui ne soit pas celui de l'Académie Française.

Pourquoi serait-ce le français parlé par un homme de lettres du nord meilleur que le français parlé par un homme de lettre du sud? L'accent? Quelle rigolade! Se faire refusé par l'accent du pays est franchement pathétique et hors du siècle XXI.
Moshe   Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:51 pm GMT
Hi!
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http://www.German-Online.net

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my name   Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:47 pm GMT
i think all standards should be replaced by new ones. The languages are alive and they change a lot, so the historic standards are useless nowadays.
Xie   Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:57 pm GMT
>>I agree that Germans don't care "how" a non-native speaks their language. They'll just be happy you use it in the first place, even if it's broken. In that case they're patient with you and sort of glad to help you out.

for me it's been difficult. Germans often end up speaking to me like
1) they go on with german only, perhaps becoz they can only speak german, and I keep on not understanding most of what they say
2) they give up after a sentence and try to offer me english, perhaps judging my own face (if i were a German speaker of Asian descent, there wouldn't be a problem, tho, and in that case my face wouldn't even count, given my german)
3) more familiar germans still have lots of problems with english, and very often they wrongly think I understand them. in fact I don't, but in some cases i'll encourage them to use german all the way to see if i understand.

in every case, i end up having to digest the content and give positive feedback, otherwise they just can't guess anything. Whether it's a cultural difference or not, I got the feeling that I have a poker face that they can never guess. For this reason, I learned that I should also offer English at the right time... after some struggles, or after just a few sentences.