intelligibility and reading ability

Skippy   Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:48 pm GMT
How much does knowing one language help you to read another? For example, if you speak/read Spanish fluently, how much knowledge of Italian would you need to be able to read it relatively well? French? Portuguese? Romanian?

Same question for Germanic, Slavic, Baltic, etc. language families...

I'm thinking mostly about Spanish but I'd really like to know about the Germanic languages as well.
ruler   Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:01 pm GMT
the intelligibility of Spanish and Portuguese is almost perfect, some difficulties you'll have with Italian, and French...well, you have to be a bit smarter :)

Germanic languages, well, only between Scandinavian. Some Germans can also deduce some words from Dutch, but English is not comparable.

Slavic languages. Well, you know there are three subgroups (western, southern, eastern). Of course, one can understand almost everything from each group, but there are some exceptions, for instance Polish which is very odd to all Slavic nations because their words are Slav, but very mixed up.
The intelligibility between subgroups is also present, such as Polish-Ukrainian/Belarus (western vs. eastern), Croatian, especially kajkavian dialect with Russian (southern vs. eastern), Slovak with Serbian (western vs. southern) etc...
apple   Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:13 pm GMT
I know English natively. I have taken French classes and Latin classes. I can't read Italian very well. Spanish is much easier. Sometimes I get a Spanish newspaper and read it. I can usually understand quite a bit of it. I can also read some Portuguese, but it is a bit harder than Spanish. The letters in Portuguese words look more divergent from Latin than in Spanish. I can understand almost no spoken Spanish or Portuguese though. So in my opinion, learning one language helps with other closely related languages quite a bit.
iris   Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:27 pm GMT
I speak as a native speaker of Portuguese. Inteligibilty with Spanish is really good. For anyone who has never had contact with Italian, French or Romanian, I'd say it depends on how smart the person is. Romanian and Italian are the languages I've hardly had any contact with, and I can understand problably around 50% of them in their written form. It depends also on the context and how hard the text is.

After Spanish, the most inteligible language for portuguese people is French, because many of us have some knowledge of it. But for someone who hasn't any knowledge of any of those languages, I'd say first Spanish, then Italian, French and, at last, Romanian.
violet   Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:39 pm GMT
If you learn Spanish, you will find it very easy to read Portuguese and you will be able to understand a bit of the others too, specially Italian.

If you start to learn any of the others after learning Spanish, you'll find it much easier, and it will not take you a long time for you to understand almost everything.
eeuuian   Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:46 am GMT
How similar is Catalan to Spanish? I'm aware that Portuguese isn't totally impossible to read, and sometimes some meaning can be coaxed out of Italian text.
blanc   Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:50 am GMT
Catalan comes second after Portuguese for a Spanish speaker.
eastlander   Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:47 pm GMT
<<Some Germans can also deduce some words from Dutch, but English is not comparable. >>
Dutch and Low German (especially East Frisian) are intelligible:

""Sünnensömmerdag.
An Deepswall*.
Foten man even
Boven ‘t Water.
Wat ruckt dat Gras.
Hundjeblomen.
Heertjepeerdjes*.""
http://www.diesel-online.de/
Guest   Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:07 pm GMT
"De neje DIESEL (69) is d’r!
Nu nal ‘n hele Week. Dat THema in ‘t Heft 69 heet: “Deren”. Van all Kantenn word dat bekeken, mit KInnerogen, in de wiede Welt, vull Pläseer, man ok van gräsige Sieden. ‘n heel Riege Geschichten un Gedichten, van ‘n heel Riege Schrievers, ok weer ‘n Antahl nejen.
Dat Heft is to kriegen bi andreas.gerdes@diesel-online.de"

"Gedicht van de Maant: Juni
Elke Maant brengen wi hier een van de 100 moiste oostfreeske
plattdüütse Gedichten (ut dat Book mit de sülvige Titel, rutgeven van DIESEL, to bestellen bi hans-hermann.briese@diesel-online.de).
För de Maimaant hebben wi utsöcht:

Greta Schoon

Dat wi överleven

Laat uns
De Duvenspraak
Weer leren,
Dat Du,
Dat Wi.

Laat uns
Weer leren,
De Regenschrift
To lesen,
Böskupp
Up blinne Fensterruten,
Un dat Windteken
An Sandbülten.

Laat uns
De gröne Bladen
Tellen
An de Kröpelbusk
Tüsken Betonmüren.

Dat wi
Överleven.

Dit Gedicht is besproken in dat neje Oostfreeslandmagazin (OMa).
Greta Schoon is geboren an de 11. Juli 1907, se was nu 100 worden."

___________________

To some extent this is also intelligible in written form for English speakers who have some knowledge of either older forms of English (Middle English) or of another germanic language.

Many words look identical to Modern English, and many others similar to older English:

Nu = Now
‘n hele Week = a whole week.
Dat = That
all = all
in de wiede Welt = in the wide world
vull = full
gräsige Sieden [=grass seeds?]
is to = is to
Laat uns = Let us/Let's
De gröne Bladen Tellen = The green blades tell (i.e. Tell/Count the green leaves)

Remarkable.
eastlander   Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:54 pm GMT
Johann Friedrich Dirks

"Ik gah as dör en Wunner

De Boom is vull van Blössems,
De Lücht is vull van Sang,
De Wereld is vull Sünnschien,
Mien Hart is vull van Klang.

Waarhen ik ok mag kieken,
Waar ik mien Kopp hen dreih,
Ut elker Blomentuuntje,
Daar lacht mi an de Mai.

Ik gah as dör en Wunner
Mit Ogen hell un blied –
Wat büst du moi, mien Heimat,
In disse Vörjahrstied!"
http://www.diesel-online.de/

O.F. lacht-Nl. lacht
O.F. gah- Nl. gaa
O.F.waar-Nl. waar
O.F. ok-Nl.ook
O.F. daar-Nl. daar
O.F. moi-Nl. mooi
O.F.Blomentuuntje-Nl. blomentuin(tje)
O.F. Vörjahrstied-Nl. voorjaarstijd
O.F. vul-Nl. vul-En. full
O.F. ik- Nl. Ik-En. I
O.F. ut-Nl. uit-En. out
O.F. van-Nl. van
O.F. is-Nl. is- En. is
O.F. De Boom- Nl.de boom-En. a tree (boam)
O.F. De Lücht- Nl.de lucht -En. air (loft)
O.F. De Wereld- Nl.de wereld- En.the world
O.F.Hart- Nl.hart-En. heart
O.F.Ogen-Nl.ogen-En. eyes
O.F.Blössems-En. Blossoms
eastlander   Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:57 pm GMT
O.F.Blössems-Nl. Bloesems-En. Blossoms .
Guest   Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:30 pm GMT
O.F. lacht-Nl. lacht -En laughs/laugheth
O.F. gah- Nl. gaa - En go
O.F.waar-Nl. waar - en. where
O.F. ok-Nl.ook En. eke
O.F. daar-Nl. daar - En. there
O.F. moi-Nl. mooi
O.F.Blomentuuntje-Nl. blomentuin(tje) (flower garden?) => ("bloom-town")
O.F. Vörjahrstied-Nl. voorjaarstijd - en. ("foreyear's tide"=spring)
O.F. vul-Nl. vul-En. full
O.F. ik- Nl. Ik-En. I
O.F. ut-Nl. uit-En. out
O.F. van-Nl. van
O.F. is-Nl. is- En. is
O.F. De Boom- Nl.de boom-En. a tree ("beam"; & boom<Du)
O.F. De Lücht- Nl.de lucht -En. air (loft, "lift"=air, atmosphere)
O.F. De Wereld- Nl.de wereld- En.the world
O.F.Hart- Nl.hart-En. heart
O.F.Ogen-Nl.ogen-En. eyes/eyen
O.F.Blössems-En. Blossoms

Easy to deduce ;)
rep   Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:34 am GMT
Dutch was an official language in East Frisia ( in XVII-XIX ages)and heavily influenced local Low Saxon dialect,which has Frisian substrate too.
Low Saxon of the official Lower Saxony website is intelligible with Dutch in less degree-
Low Saxon:
"In Nedersassen finnen Ji een van de lüttjeste Spraakinsels in Europa: dat Saterland. Daar snacken vandaag noch ruugweg 2.000 Minschen Freesch. Tegen dat Noordfreesche (in Sleswig-Holsteen) un dat Westfreesche (in de nederlandsche Provinz Fryslân) is Saterfreesch de darde Förm van de freesche Spraak, de in Europa as Minderheidenspraak anerkannt is."
Dutch:
"In Neder-Saksen vindt u een van de kleinste linguïstische enclaves van Europa: het Saterland. Daar spreken nog altijd circa 2.000 mensen Fries. Naast het Noord-Fries (in Sleeswijk-Holstein) en het 'Nederlandse' Fries (in de provincie Fryslân) is Saterlands Fries de derde in Europa als minderheidstaal erkende variant van het Fries."
English:
"In Lower Saxony you will find one of the smallest linguistic enclaves in Europe: Saterland. Here, even today, around 2,000 people still speak Frisian. Sater Frisian is, along with North Frisian (spoken in Schleswig-Holstein) and West Frisian (spoken in the Dutch province of Fryslân), the third variety of Frisian in Europe to be granted official status as a minority language."
http://www.international.niedersachsen.de/pd/home.html
Harman   Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:54 am GMT
I agree with all posted. But i think galego (gallego in spanish) is closer to spanish than catala or portuguese, perhaps ladino too.

As i wrote alot of times in this forum i'm amazing how close are spanish and portuguese lenguage i can read and listen without portuguese study (specially american portuguese) and how very fast portuguese people learn spanish when they come to work to spain (with low education level).

So i think if you Know spanish, it will help you to learn portuguese very fast.
rep   Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:37 am GMT
Galego is form of Portuguese,heavily influenced by Spanish (Castilian):

1. Toda persoa ten dereito a participar no goberno do seu país, directamente ou por medio de representantes libremente escollidos.
2. Toda persoa ten dereito de acceso, en condicións de igualdade, ás funcións públicas do seu país.
3. A vontade do pobo ó a base da autoridade do poder público; esta vontade expresarase mediante eleccións auténticas que se haberán de celebrar periodicamente, por sufraxio universal e igual e por voto secreto ou outro procedemento equivalente que garanta a liberdade de voto.

Portuguese:
1. Toda a pessoa tem o direito de tomar parte na direcção dos negócios, públicos do seu país, quer directamente, quer por intermédio de representantes livremente escolhidos.
2. Toda a pessoa tem direito de acesso, em condições de igualdade, às funções públicas do seu país.
3. A vontade do povo é o fundamento da autoridade dos poderes públicos: e deve exprimir‐se através de eleições honestas a realizar periodicamente por sufrágio universal e igual, com voto secreto ou segundo processo equivalente que salvaguarde a liberdade de voto.

Spanish(Calstilian):
1. Toda persona tiene derecho a participar en el gobierno de su país, directamente o por medio de representantes libremente escogidos.
2. Toda persona tiene el derecho de acceso, en condiciones de igualdad, a las funciones públicas de su país.
3. La voluntad del pueblo es la base de la autoridad del poder público; esta voluntad se expresará mediante elecciones auténticas que habrán de celebrarse periódicamente, por sufragio universal e igual y por voto secreto u otro procedimiento equivalente que garantice la libertad del voto.
http://www.lexilogos.com/declaration/index_english.htm