Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis and the Poetry of Afflatus

Garavert   Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:29 am GMT
When I talk to others, to me they sometimes seem to appear almost like different people when speaking in their mother tongue comparing their gestures, mimic and expressions, than speaking in other languages.
The languages they use, affect their realm of thinking.
I also feel this way when reading poetry, although I believe it also has to do with the fact that cultures influence their own languages.
And I think it also has something to do with the problem, that most languages tend to loose expressions, instead of creating new ones.
Will we be suffering a lack of thought, ideas and inspirational thinking by loosing vocabulary? How many languages do we have to learn to think better? Are there words we must not forget or re-learn, to broaden our minds? Are there words in different languages that enable us to broaden our horizon of thinking?
YODA   Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:50 am GMT
<<When I talk to others, to me they sometimes seem to appear almost like different people when speaking in their mother tongue comparing their gestures, mimic and expressions, than speaking in other languages.
The languages they use, affect their realm of thinking. >>


No no no. The language they use has no affect whatsoever on their thinking. Their ABILITY at using a certain language has everything to do with their COMMUNICATION.


<<How many languages do we have to learn to think better? >>

Our native one needs to be learnt well. Beyond that, it's not really a must. It can't hurt, but then Sudoku's good too...


<<Are there words in different languages that enable us to broaden our horizon of thinking? >>

Not really in general terms. Different languages may have different words for different things or have words for different concepts, but that is hardly a limitation for people who don't know those languages. All you need to do is introduce the person who speaks another language to the new concept and problem solved. For example, people often use the example of Inuit languages that have 30 different words for snow. I used to think this was incredible, but then during the winter I examined the snow and came up with names for the different varieties that I saw, classifying them by their characteristics. Now I have 30 words for snow. Big deal.


<<Will we be suffering a lack of thought, ideas and inspirational thinking by loosing vocabulary?>>

In one's native language, yes I think so. One needs to be able to explain oneself in clear language and have the right words in order to talk about complex things. This is evident in science. In fact, human language is not adequate for mathematics, so a new language based on logic had to be created.


<<And I think it also has something to do with the problem, that most languages tend to loose expressions, instead of creating new ones. >>

No, they don't. They just replace old expressions with new ones. Lolzor I pwned you n00bface, hakzored 4 the win. Explain that one to someone 100 years ago.
Q   Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:48 am GMT
<<comparing their gestures, mimic and expressions, than speaking in other languages. >>

Mimic - do you mean body language? To mimic someone means to imitate them, sort of mocking.
Garavert   Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:23 am GMT
<The language they use has no affect whatsoever on their thinking.>

Yes, it does! Just think of all the associations and hints we give the opposite, when speaking or writing! Not to mention ironic subcontent!

Certain expressions in one language are linked to a variety of pictures, images, they create in our mind. If translated, most of these very specific differences are very hard to get across, and the idea of explaining every tidbit of it to the listener, unfamiliar with the source language, seems quite a hard task, if not impossible, not only because of the cultural context it derives from, but also because of the associations it provokes in the source language.
These associated images and ideas are again, what allows an experienced listener of that language to come to different conclusions about a text or message, than the one who only receives a translated content without the specific subtext hidden in the source.
But ideas and concepts provoke new ideas and concepts, using associations and inspiration - and the starting point of such cannot be unimportant...(according to Kant, and his apriori thesis in logic)

Furthermore does science need an agreed terminology to communicate and specify the expressed content, and mathematics may be a way to express certain abstract concepts logically, which might otherwise be almost impossible to point out. But this very argumentation is a proof for my point: Mathematic expressions are used and new ones found (like ideas, concepts, formulas) to express content beyond the yet known communicational horizon - we might not be able to think or speak of without this mathematical vocabulary.
And that is a cross-language proof for my thought, am I right? Also, if certain expressions (in spoken language) are simply disappearing, the expressed content itself will not be thought in this way anymore, or does it?
We might suffer a severe lack of ideas and inspirational thought, when we loose vocabulary - in general.
And to my knowlegde, you can very well miss something, you don not even know.

And a creation of new expressions (ideas) is contrary to the example of hacked newspeak globish you gave.
<Lolzor I pwned you n00bface> might sound almost familiar to a person of the early 20th century when spoken out loud - and certainly captures a rather old fashioned concept of communication, does it not?
Garavert   Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:44 am GMT
Q <Mimic - do you mean body language? To mimic someone means to imitate them, sort of mocking.>

Great example! I meant facial expressions, but in many languages, the word mimic determines facial expressions - sorry, my mistake.
But a great proof for my thought!

Any word in one human language does provoke a number of associations (there), which might lead a reader or listener to certain thoughts, he might have not come up with, when reading a translation of this word or expression only.
So we always read something into the content we come across, and the language we read or hear gives a starting point for associations and ideas this content, in its very shape, provokes in us.
This is most evident in poetry and theatre.

Since we are loosing vocabulary, this might also be affecting our abilities of thinking and inspiration, if we only replace old content with newer sounding words from well known word sources, but do not, for example, invent new words and expressions for new contents, while keeping elderly, old fashioned vocabulary and expressions alive. It will narrow our horizon. So I am asking, what expressions and words do we know (in several languages) which broaden our mind, the way of thinking, because of the thought provoking content, context and shape? And which have we already almost forgotten, that should not be?
Uranomaniac   Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:23 am GMT
Come on, you omnierudites,
start the requested rhapsodomancy !
Or else, this cumbersome waiting
on intelligent inventful replies may become another rectalgia.

Please do not make me believe the effect of the diminishing vocabulary
and knowledge has already eaten your inspiration and inventiveness!

Hello?
Is there anybody out there?
Dumbo   Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:42 am GMT
Sorry, I can't reply because I have such a small vocabulary I can hardly think, let alone understand what you wrote.
Uranomaniac   Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:47 am GMT
Tell your Nanny thank you for typing this for you. And get well soon!