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Do you consider Occitania as fully part of France?
Let's not try to break boundries when it divides Europe. A better goal to fight for is the true recognition of minority languages, especially the important ones like Occitan. They should open schools in Occitan (first elementary schools, then also lycées).
They should also make Occitan lessons compulsory in whole of Occitania, so that francophones can learn the language and spirit of the region and get to know its rich culture, literature and history.
French are affraid it would break their precious révolution, but I think they should put aside this fear. In fact, it would even improve their reputation. It would make France a true free country. It would keep the culture of France richer.
I can tell you this, Occitan people will still be able to speak French when they get educated in Occitan. They need that language in their daily life and French remains an important subject on school. The media still is French. Romance speakers learn other Romance languages rather quickly. Etc...
October 24th in Carcassona, mass protest for the recognition of the Occitan language. I think that every respectful linguist who lives near enough should be there, even the francophones.
Let's hope the second article of the French constitution will ever change.
http://anemoc.macarel.net/sites/default/files/images/magali_danis_rotge.jpg
http://anemoc.macarel.net/sites/default/files/images/pascal_lima0.jpg
http://creo-mp.chez-alice.fr/manifbesiers/anem.jpg
The previous manifestation for the Occitan language in Béziers attracted 15,000 to 20,000 people.
http://creo-mp.chez-alice.fr/manifbesiers/Bezierslademonstrationdeforce.jpg
Try to be there, every person present helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjjkAQE1A3Y
Try to change history and cease being the oppressor.
As a Spaniard I can only say that the French did a good job at erasing Occitan from the map as well as the rest of patois varieties. Look at Spain, the recognition of regional "languages" has only provoked strong separatism, terrorism, many deaths in Basque Country and prosecution against the Spanish language in Catalonia. People who do not use Catalan and prefer Spanish in their business are charged by the authorities and native Spanish speakers can't study in Spanish in Catalonian public schools and universities. Similar things could happen in France if they allow regional languages to be used at schools and administration.
<<The previous manifestation for the Occitan language in Béziers attracted 15,000 to 20,000 people. >>
Do you think that Occitan will be recognized only because 15 000 freaks (according to the people who organised that manifestation) propose it? Even more, many of those people are not even French but Catalans. Occitan is a dead language for practical purposes and nobody can change it.
<<As a Spaniard I can only say that the French did a good job at erasing Occitan from the map as well as the rest of patois varieties. Look at Spain, the recognition of regional "languages" has only provoked strong separatism, terrorism, many deaths in Basque Country and prosecution against the Spanish language in Catalonia. People who do not use Catalan and prefer Spanish in their business are charged by the authorities and native Spanish speakers can't study in Spanish in Catalonian public schools and universities. Similar things could happen in France if they allow regional languages to be used at schools and administration. >>
If French "erase" Occitan from the map-it is good,but if Catalans prosecute against Spanish language in Catalunya-it is bad?
" Honestly, not quite. In nearly every country some regions are more loosely related to the national culture than others, especially in nations with a long centralist tradition. Scotland is less British than England"
You can't compare the England/Scotland relation with traditionally langue d'oil/langue d'oc areas the same way. for further reasons:
1. Scotland is fully part of the united kingdom since 1707 only, as a independant nation (not part of England) while what will becom "oc areas" are part of the realm that will become France since the end of the 5th century... Provence was fully integrated later (at same time than Britany).
2. Scotland is a political entity: it has a parliament, a capital and specific local laws. Langue d'oc areas never formed a nation, not a dominant city, not a dominant oc dialect, but a group of various french regions (sometimes very different to each other, with different cultures: cf. Nice county vs Limousin or Gascony...) that only shared similar dialects of Oc language.
3. many most tipical aspects of french culture are from Oc regions:
for exemple south-west gastronomy is considered as the quintessential french food (foie gras, duck Magret, cassoulet,
etc.), Bordeaux wines, etc.
" Northern England and the West Country are not English to the same extent than the South-East."
Really, in what way??
To me those regions of northern and western England are almost more tipically English than the south east. I tend to consider London's area as a sort of different than the rest of England, maybe because of its proximity to the continent. This is just my opinion.
It's good for the French spekers, who are majority by far in France and bad for the Occitan speakers. But there are very few Occitan speakers right now in France.
" It's good for the French spekers, who are majority by far in France and bad for the Occitan speakers. "
Those you call "occitan speakers" are native french speakers (maybe with a little exeptions of politically-oriented people nobody is raised in occitan since a long time) occitan is mainly a second language learned by people who want to preserve a linguistic heritage). It might be sad but this is the reality, all comparisions with Catalan situation in Spain doesn't fit at all.
That's why I don't understand the fear in all of this. In the Netherlands for instance, Frisian is a dying language, yet it is recognized. No wishes for separatism there.
Same for Welsh in Wales, it's a growing Celtic language, but there are hardly any wishes for separatism.
And is it really so hard to learn Catalan if you move to the region? You gotta realize that your newspaper isn't some bible of all-knowing truth. You, as a Spaniard were smart enough to learn English, yet you think people will like you if you move en masse to a region refusing to even try to know the language.
BTW, the Basque terrorism isn't due to recognition of the language. What an insult toward Basque people speaking their language, yet you wonder why they don't call themselves Spanish... I can tell you that by violently trying to wipe their heritage out, you won't get less terrorism.
Perhaps you can stop seeing insult by seeing Basque in use.
Anyway, what's wrong with making Occitan language compulsory in school? In Ireland Gaelic also is compulsory. No problems there. It's part of the cultural baggage a child needs.
All fear the mighty Occitan seccionist movement blowing up the Paris metro! Be a little serious will you?
"2. Scotland is a political entity: it has a parliament, a capital and specific local laws. Langue d'oc areas never formed a nation, not a dominant city, not a dominant oc dialect, but a group of various french regions (sometimes very different to each other, with different cultures: cf. Nice county vs Limousin or Gascony...) that only shared similar dialects of Oc language."
It's not a huge problem making a generalized Oc variant.
Frisian also is Western Frisian that differs from its Eastern brother. If you are able to safe one dialect, the language is saved.
Commomaswhole,nothing wrong with making Flemish (Dutch) language compulsory in schools of Dunkirk area of France too.
Commomaswhole,nothing wrong with making Flemish (Dutch) language compulsory in schools of Dunkirk area of France too
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they don't speak flemish in north france, you're just dreaming.
Personally I don't care too much about the Flemish in northern France. It's just a dialect of Western Flemish. The Dutch language is alive and kicking anyway, so it's no big deal.
Here an example of such a French Fleming when it was still spoken: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHTjKl_L9-U (at 1:15)
His accent when speaking French is something I recognize very will in Flanders. Not every person who speaks Belgian Dutch speaks Flemish dialect, but it show how political borders also decide for a people how a language sounds (like how Basque sounds Spanish for instance).
For Occitan it would be very pitiful when it would be forgotten. I don't think it's such a bad thing to preserve some variant of it to keep some of the old regional spirit alive, if only it were people having learnt about it. Symbolically it means a lot for a language to be recognized and respected.
Occitan is a language with prestige, a rich vocabulary, wise folksy idioms, etc... It has a rich literature as well. It has equal prestige and is just as classy as French is (which is the dominant d'oïl language).
Our Spaniard above called Occitan a patois, but he fails to recognize how once upon a time le 'françois' didn't dominate the oïl language. In fact, general language always develop out of a dominant dialect or mix of dialects.
Here's an example of Picard or Ch'teumi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXOP3GDvidc
This regional language has clearly more affinity to French, than Occitan has.
<<Commomaswhole,nothing wrong with making Flemish (Dutch) language compulsory in schools of Dunkirk area of France too
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they don't speak flemish in north france, you're just dreaming. >>
you are dreaming,melvin.
<<French Flemish (Dutch: Frans-Vlaams, occasionally used in English) is spoken in the north of contemporary France and is considered part of the West Flemish dialect of the Dutch language. Placenames testify of the dialect being spoken since the eighth century in the area that was ceded to France in the 17th century and which became known as French Flanders. Its dialect subgroup called French Flemish meanwhile became a minority dialect that survives mainly between Dunkirk (Duinkerke in Dutch), Bourbourg, Calais (Kales in Dutch), Saint-Omer and Bailleul (Belle in Dutch). It has about 20,000 daily users, and twice that number of occasional speakers>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Flemish
Most people who still speak the language there are the elders only. It's true that most French Flemings are proud of their heritage and they put on Flemish signs in streetnames and such, but that's where it stops.
I guess some get optional Dutch lessons on school also.
The young generation all speak French as their first language. ;)
The French Flemish dialect is very close to the Western Flemish one, they're the same dialect in a way.
you are dreaming,melvin
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you're dreaming, I live in Lille, I was born in Hazebrouck in North France, so I know we don't speak flemish here, we speak french.
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