confusion of phonemes

flash guest   Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:02 am GMT
So I'm noticing the vowel [open-mid back unrounded vowel] ʌ represented in dictionaries are actually 4 phonemes:
ɐ, ɜ, ʌ and ɔ

I know that this is in accordance with the accents, some use a phoneme other accent other phoneme [very well explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mid_back_unrounded_vowel],
but I have noticed in a single accent, examples:

The same person says:

current = /kɜrənt/ -> but represented as: /kʌrənt/
trust = /trʌst/
love = /lɔv/ -> but represented as: /lʌv/
but = /bɐt/ -> but represented as: /bʌt/


Others examples:

currency = /kɜr@nsi/
currently = /kɜr@ntli/

must = /mʌst/
club = /clʌb/
doesn't = /dʌnst/
just = /jʌst/
brush = /brʌS/
much = /mʌtS/
plus = /plʌs/
study = /stʌdi/

rutty = rɔti
construct = k@nstrɔkt
above = @bɔve
bulk = bɔlk
result = rizɔlt

up = ɐp
cup = cɐp
runs = rɐns
some = sɐm
one = wɐn
brunch = brɐnSt
culture = cɐltS@r
come = kɐm
from = frɐm
other = ɐD@r
coutry = kɐntri
MrPedantic   Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:36 am GMT
Take a course.

MrP
Guest   Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:51 am GMT
I think dictionaries or courses simply can't represent a dialect perfectly and take all of those subtleties into account. It would probably be impossible. They are simplified, but if you notice those features on your own, I would say you don't need dictionary transcriptions or accent reduction courses anymore.
By the way, I don't think that reply was really from MrPedantic.
flash guest   Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:36 pm GMT
I found a explanation for this:

The replacement of the lot vowel with the strut vowel in most utterances of the words was, of, from, what and in many utterances of the words everybody, nobody, somebody, anybody; the word because has either /ʌ/ or /ɔ/;[7] want has normally /ɔ/ or /ɑ/, sometimes /ʌ/.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English

Thanks Guest.
MrP   Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:45 pm GMT
<The same person says:
but = /bɐt/ -> but represented as: /bʌt/ >

There's also the possibility that a person will use one pronunciation when the word is stressed, and another when it isn't.

(Guest was right about that other reply, by the way: 8:36 am GMT is several hours too early for me to post.)

MrP
Another Guest   Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:35 pm GMT
Your post was, at times, rather incoherent, but your post seems to boil down to "some people pronounce these words as having different vowels, yet the dictionary indicates that they have the same vowel". Perhaps that indicates that the people in question have a nonstandard dialect, rather than that the dictionary is "confusing" phonemes?
flash guest   Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:52 am GMT
Certainly not.
All Americans and British speaks "love" as /lɔv/ [but this "ɔ" is unrounded] and not as /lʌv/, however, "club", at least is spoke like /clʌb/ in American English.
Do you want mean that "up" is pronounced like /ʌp/ in the standard English? I can't believe that "up" has the same quality of vowel than "love" and than "club".
Another Guest   Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:42 am GMT
Can you provide an audio file of what you consider "ɔ"? There are sound files embedded in this webpage: http://web.uvic.ca/ling/resources/ipa/charts/IPAlab/IPAlab.htm

Their "ɔ" sounds nothing like the vowel I use for "love", and I do not hear a difference between the vowels for "up", "club", "love", or any of the other words. You can also check out Merriam-Websters entries for the words; they sound like the same vowel to me. I do not know why you feel qualified to speak as to how "all" American and British speak, especially since you're obviously not a native speaker.
Johnny   Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:49 am GMT
<<All Americans and British speaks "love" as /lɔv/ [but this "ɔ" is unrounded] >>

First of all, if it's not rounded it can't be a /ɔ/. Second of all, they don't all speak the same way. There are a lot of regional variations. I think some might even say /lʊv/. I think in most dialects there is no distinction between the vowel in "love" and the one in "club" or "up".
flash guest   Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:08 pm GMT
I know there are some dialects in northern England that say /lʊv/.
Just for simplicity I used the /ɔ/, because
this sound not rounded is /ʌ/ in the IPA chart,
but in English /ʌ/ is more near to /ɜ/
I really hear 3 sounds very distinct.
I am confused, the natives generally told me that is just one sound. If I make only one sound for all those words, certainly will be songs very different from the native.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/must.html
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/love.html
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/bulk.html

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/love
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/must
vet   Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:18 am GMT
I think I know what you're getting at.

I know people who pronounce the words like "hull", "hulk", "dull", etc. with a very round, open-o like vowel. Only slightly more open then IPA [o].

For me, "buck", "duck", "cut", etc. have the same vowel - but it's more like the upside-down a than the [^]. Which I have in "bug", "dug", "cud", etc. It isn't simply a voicing difference though. "Cut" does not rhyme with "rut" or "gut", which are [r^t] and [g^t]. However, I say "but" as [b^t]. Also, the first syllable of "honey" is the upside-down a, not to be confused with "Hunny" (meaning Hun-like), which has the [^]. If you pardon the language, I do have a minimal pair in "come" (upside down a) and "cum" ([^]). Confused yet?

One issue with words like "current" is that a great deal of Americans have a rhotacized vowel so it's like "krrr-ent". Few have the more British-sounding "kuh-rent", with a clear, non-rhotacized vowel. I have the latter.

Of course I'm from Boston, so all bets are off when it comes to vowel systems.
Oregon   Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:06 pm GMT
>> I know people who pronounce the words like "hull", "hulk", "dull" etc. with a very round, open-o like vowel. Only slightly more open then IPA [o] <<

Hull /hVl/
Hulk /hAlk/
Dull /dVl/
Cult /kAlt/
Gulf /gAlf/
flash guest   Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:55 pm GMT
Finally someone who understood me, thank you for explanation, very enlightening.
Your explanations are applied for others dialects, in my opinion.
It's noticed in the samples below:

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/hull.html
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/hulk.html

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/dull.html
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/cult.html

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/come.html
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/cum.html