Academic language vs ordinary language

<<>>BTW, why do many learners like to reach a near native level of foreign language command? Is that really necessary?<< >>


Often for irrational reasons. It becomes and obsession kind of. Kind of like a rich guy who goes on hording money that he'll never even use.

>>I suspect that your (Xie) comprehension is not so good!<<

It is. Time wasn't part of the exam syllabus back in those old, bad (not good) days of high school, so I was never motivated to read anything like this. I told you so, I can't read novels that well, nor can I read Time.

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Address

>>You are right, if people do not use Sir or Madam, what do they use? This problem is particularly acute with young women. Is it 'Miss', Mrs, or Ms? It is not always easy to ask for what is essentially personal information.

How would you like to be called?<<

Back in high school, the English I learned meant that we were supposed to use Sir and Madam extensively. If I were you, for example, I would feel being received in Hong Kong very very very politely. However, I can't think of any Cantonese equivalent of Sir and Madam other than Monsieur and Madame/Mademoiselle in French. But those, too, are too polite for fellow university students, young people, etc. We don't use pronouns that often and older language (and formal language) does avoid "you" quite often, so I'm yet to know how to get around "you". It sounds very direct. In any language, I don't usually start with "you".

Well, in antimoon, it's totally OK to call me anything as long as I accept it and I know you are writing to me.

In at least one African culture, I'd be called simply my surname, and so should I. I wondered how my male relatives would be called, and the answer is: it's all the same. That would be impossible in my society. My surname is strangely RARE in Hong Kong, but there are still a lot of namesakes if I simply call myself Xie. So I wrote that I was using it rather blatantly.

>>In the southern part of the US (and I've lived in various parts of the US), it is more common to hear "sir" and "ma'am" and frankly, I don't like this, even though I sometimes address people this way. If you address a woman as "ma'am" she may even take offense as it may imply that she is older than she thinks she is. Think about that... <<

I'm lost in translation. Even if I use Xiao3 Jie3 (Ms to be neutral, Miss for younger-looking ones, at large) for any Chinese women, anybody could take offense as if I were regarding them prostitutes. While this isn't true for Hong Kong, we all know this could be a problem elsewhere.

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Word use

But the difficult problem is: first, how do I know if I (me) use the wrong word? Second, with practically no sympathetic speakers available, how can I be informed at all about usual usage and NEW usage, and stuff like that? It follows that 99% of the English learners may never be able to reach the near-native level, and we'd often end up using older language or even wrong language. I finally met Anglophones as acquaintances this year, but naturally, I had nothing special with them, then yes, it was impossible for me to practice that much English with them. *Especially since I wasn't female!

Having that said, it's quite a natural phenomenon. My usual linguistic complaint comes down to one thing: I didn't share a lot of topics. I knew very little about my own pop culture, not to mention western ones. Except the minority of white guys who shared my mentality (there ARE such guys), I couldn't get most guys (girls) involved in conversations. So, at least, my oral language didn't improve as a natural result of TALKING to native speakers (any language). My remedy is rather flawed in Krashen's terms - namely that, rather than relying on naturalistic acquisition, I spent far more time on learning (sometimes learning rules) and on monitoring my speech, making it rather formal, like in front of my German-speaking cousin.

Difficulties

In short, it's always been very difficult for me to learn English. Things would be easier if I were an Asian female (minus the initiative), if I were speaking a European language, so that I would communicate far more easily with a similar culture (Anglo-American). In linguistics terms, I simply lack the very natural but significant advantages of Europeans/Anglophones in general. It's been a cliché to say just how bad the East Asians learn English (well, well, same for some Europeans too), but it is, they simply don't even have the right environment to immerse in. For Mandarin, I can do it in just a year. For English, after more than a decade, I still feel as if I've been missing almost completely the whole culture behind it. It's no use even if you speak "grammatically". This is just the basics. You wouldn't in any way be engaging the Anglophones well without some cultural understanding. But, then, who teaches me this?

(Now back in Hong Kong, I can understand why it is so difficult to get into contact with foreign guys. First, most guys look for Chinese girls, not me. We're mostly straight. Second, I don't know about girls, but I won't have time anyway due to a lot of schoolwork - quite typical of "oriental" universities where Chinese guys (and girls) always end up with a lot of work and can't really socialize much. Whether you are male or female, as long as you speak English, you can just override everybody and most of us, me included, want to practice English. I don't just approach girls (though I never until now, I only talk on and off), but I like to meet guys too. But I'm, like millions of Chinese students, simply not in the right place to meet them)

Back in Hong Kong, the situation is like that, like at the university, most Chinese (lecturers, students), except in the Chinese major, expect YOU to speak passable English. Anglophone professors don't explicitly expect English, but they talk full-speed (I can normally catch 90% of it). The others, they normally know English only, so, again, English. It's counter-intuitive, though, for me to expect myself to speak good English when it's just so hard to acquire the right sources.

It's particular problematic for most foreigners to expect English from some Asians, but they, and their counterparts, seldom really offer them the opportunities to acquire English well. I was actually rather offended by my American acquaintances back then (until I befriended them somehow) when they were sort of irritated by my limited English. And the Germans, they usually offered me English when coming across vocab gaps, and a few of them simply avoided German at all cost to "communicate better" in English. In any case, at least just for Hongkongers in general, everybody just ignores everything of them but expects English only. In short, you shouldn't expect English from someone at all while not even offering him/her the opportunity to improve it. I tried my best to speak German, but many Germans just forced English on me anyway, until they could see my German was better than their English.

So now, as in the case with German (which happens to be simpler), I end up now saying that I should just learn English alone indefinitely unless I'm given an opportunity like my stay in Germany - this case in an Anglophone country. In learning German, I also spent far more time alone with books and could in fact speak better than those who simply relied on conversations.

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"Self"-learning

Well, despite the long complaint (again), it's quite rational to teach yourself English/German/anything else rather than ask the native speakers to teach you. For the former, you can do it until you die, and no one except you can read books for you. I didn't acquire Chinese entirely through being taught, either. I was forced to read. For the latter, the chance is always so darn slim. For English, German, and Mandarin, only a couple of native speakers have ever commented on my levels and perhaps corrected my mistakes. But I'm already quite an enthusiastic learner and quite devoted. Asking for natives is just as difficult as learning the language itself, because.... 1) first, in Hong Kong, it's only far easier to find Mandarin speakers, but very often they're too busy with their business anyway and most of them simply speak Cantonese back to me. 2) It's difficult too to stay in Germany/Anglophone countries for a long time and then befriend somebody to practice their languages. 3) Even if you engage somebody in conversations anytime and anywhere, most of your mistakes go uncorrected out of politeness.

So, I don't quite agree with the conventional opinion of staying abroad for the sake of practicing what-you-want-to.

>>Often for irrational reasons. It becomes and obsession kind of. Kind of like a rich guy who goes on hording money that he'll never even use.<<

If I were Anglophone and had no practical need at all to learn any language, of course I wouldn't have my own complaints.

But even in Hong Kong where almost everybody is Chinese, the better my English is, the easier it is for me to do anything, including leaving this culture. In Hong Kong, we all know it's very important to learn English, and it's (at least until China shows its immense influence in the world's higher education.... well, I don't expect this will happen until at least 20 years later) "of course" better to have studied in the US/UK than to stay in this tiny city. And in Hong Kong, my academic CV would be ruined/nullified if I did a PHD here, because it's simply worth almost nothing for a Hongkonger - may be good for a Chinese from elsewhere, but certainly not as attractive as a German Phd/American Phd or anything else.

In the social perspective, I wouldn't blame English or the Anglophones at all. We Chinese worship both so much that we're paying the heavy price for it even in our own country. Yeah, yeah, foreign guys, let us just go on with English. At least at the university, Chinese is worthless. Doing a degree in mainland China, at large, would also ruin my own CV. When most of the good research, study opportunities, a better life, better air, food, water, and even personal security, monetary and social security, etc, when you can find them all (or most of them) by doing a foreign phd and then leave this culture for good, would you still say no?

My country is simply too crowded. And sometimes I do envy my cousins although they suck in Chinese. But what's wrong with that? When they grow up, they'll also have eliminated the bad culture we have back home. When they don't even know all the tricks, conspiracies, bad moral standards, etc, like among my Chinese family, they can be very good and nice people of western background. Well, it's now good for them not to have learned anything substantial of this culture; but I do think it's better to make it a liberal, individualistic, free, less selfish culture.

FCUK

My immediate reaction on seeing someone one called 'FCUK': French Connection United Kingdom, I thought that this must be an immature British person who enjoys saying the word FUCK in 'inappropriate' situations.

'Inappropriate' is another interesting word. 'Inappropriate' is a word that can be used to describe behaviour that ranges from the criminal to the officially embarrassing. Local Councils are very concerned that individuals might exhibit 'inappropriate' behaviour. The most 'inappropriate' behaviour possible is 'treachery' or 'treason' which in the olden days was punished in the most severe way possible - traditionally be being 'hung, drawn and quartered'.

I am in danger of turning into Damian, trying to introduce novel words into popular journalism. However anything must be better than turning into Travis, the Linguistic Expert, who writes in a deliberately unintelligible way in order to assure us of his academic credentials. In this way 'knowledge' is retained by an educated elite, who speak a foreign language (Latin) and who refuse to converse with ordinary people or speak their language.

<< 3) Even if you engage somebody in conversations anytime and anywhere, most of your mistakes go uncorrected out of politeness. >>

It's not just politeness. If you're talking about an interesting topic, you'll have no time for corrections. But sometimes, the other may be annoyed if you correct him again and again. As a learner, you also will reach a point where you can't learn anymore when you're constantly corrected.

I know somebody who addresses his customers ''Sir''. He is native German -- at least I think so --, I am native German, but he addresses me ''Sir'' -- Weird!

Dear Xie

You need to get out a bit more.


Everyone knows that China is going to become increasingly important.

There must be some European women who could share German or English with you, and possibly even learn Chinese. People often say that the best way to learn the language is to have a live in helper.



I can't say I have learnt a lot of Polish but at least I am eating better.


Have a look at Livemocha.com


Bye for now

Peeeers Morgan

doom Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:43 pm GMT:

<< <<>>BTW, why do many learners like to reach a near native level of foreign language command? Is that really necessary?<< >>


Often for irrational reasons. It becomes and obsession kind of. Kind of like a rich guy who goes on hording money that he'll never even use. >>

Thanks, doom, for your reply!

I never understood why someone needs to reach near native level. This would be much effort for no real benefit, because real natives instantly be aware of you're not native, so what's the point in reaching that level? Why should someone be cheated about what I am? BTW, is it really possible to reach that level if you're not a native? I don't think so!

I also don't see the point in academic language versus ordinary language. Well, in English, academic language may differ much more form ordinary language than elsewhere, because of that Romance influence and the ''isolating'' nature of English, which makes it unnatural to build compounds where other languages would do that in academic usage.

To my mind, a foreign language learner should stick to some kind of ''normal'' language (i. e. not street language) in order to not insult someone undeliberately. If this learner needs academic language e. g. for his studies, he should learn that after reaching a basic command of the language. But I don't see the point in the topic of this thread. If ''academic language'' just means the formal register of a language, then what is wrong with being formal for a learner? It's better to be formal than to be insulting. If you start learning a language, it's very unlikely that your textbook starts with that formal register. You most likely will start with everyday conversation, basic vocabulary, basic everyday phrases and so on.

Xie Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:48 am GMT:

<< >>I suspect that your (Xie) comprehension is not so good!<<

It is. Time wasn't part of the exam syllabus back in those old, bad (not good) days of high school, so I was never motivated to read anything like this. I told you so, I can't read novels that well, nor can I read Time. >>

Obviously, we have something in commen. My schooldays also were very bad due to constant bulling against me.

What do you mean with Time? Do you mean the newspaper The Times?

And Xie, and others, too, we are here in an international discussion forum. So don't use abbrivations or acronyms which may not known by everyone. I only can guess that CV means curriculum vitae. Ha, according to www.leo.org, it can be that.

>>As a learner, you also will reach a point where you can't learn anymore when you're constantly corrected.<<

I should thank many of you guys of tolerating my writing style. I didn't write that I did have the same problem with Chinese learners. I didn't correct them, either. If someone's English is less competent than mine, chances are I won't at all correct anything too, except there is huge misunderstanding.

The message behind is just that... now, there are two ways of acquisition. One, you are born and raised in that language, and you always end up becoming a native. Two, you're a foreigner, or you at least didn't acquire this language continuously from your childhood to early adulthood. In fact, my cousin in Australia had problems with English. The boy didn't comprehend English well as a 5-year-old. I can make up 3 terms: born and raised acquisition, adult acquisition (18+), and child acquisition (not born but raised in the language).

>>There must be some European women who could share German or English with you, and possibly even learn Chinese. People often say that the best way to learn the language is to have a live in helper.<<

Of course, I'm (largely) straight, but I also value guy friends. But speaking of my experiences, I just can't communicate very well with foreign guys and girls alike. We just don't share many hobbies and interests. While young Chinese are forced to be concerned about career, money, exams...all the time, Europeans I met simply led such a relaxed, and even hedonistic life. There are so many topics, values, opinions that we couldn't agree on. I practiced far more German and English with non-native speakers.

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"Native" Acquisition

>>I never understood why someone needs to reach near native level. This would be much effort for no real benefit, because real natives instantly be aware of you're not native, so what's the point in reaching that level?<<

English: need a good accent, need good comprehension of ordinary language, novels, films.
German: still a beginner. good accent already acquired. need the same kind of acquisition I had with English.

For English, I think the greatest problem so far still remains in speaking. Of course, I know, I'm not a native (culturally), but I need enough working knowledge. Even if I stop German now, I still need a lot of effort with English.

>>But I don't see the point in the topic of this thread. If ''academic language'' just means the formal register of a language, then what is wrong with being formal for a learner? It's better to be formal than to be insulting<<

I'd be criticized again for being long-winded. The thing is, the school English we learned is hardly useful for daily usage. In fact, I also learned some English that I won't use again at all. I used to know shall is like will and should, but now dictionaries say shall is already quite an old word to use. I stopped using it, and no problems arose.

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Well, of course CV is the made-up report you need to hunt for a job!

Well, the less time I have, the less interested I'm in languages. I'd contemplate the idea of picking up another language, but I'd be too busy with French which I had already started a long time ago. As time passed, I find it more interesting and rewarding just to focus on one language, whatever it is, and reach this kind of near-native proficiency. Regardless of linguistic background,....

I think just one language shouldn't bother you too much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madam

Native speakers understand the difference between "a Madam" (brothel sense) and "Madam" and "Madame". At least I hope they do.

There are also at least two old threads at Antimoon about "Ma'am".
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/2003/3343.htmhttp:

//www.antimoon.com/forum/posts/8460.htm


I was not brought up to call people "ma'am" and "sir", but my older brother uses these terms. I don't want to call women "ma'am" as that makes them (especially if they are in their thirties) feel "old".

So, you have people who were brought up to call everyone "ma'am" and "sir",

people who use it only with people that they judge to be a certain age.
(Extremely risky to do.),

people who never use it,

people who are insulted (especially women) when you call them "ma'am",

and people who are insulted if you don't use "ma'am" and "sir".

I use these terms sparingly and cautiously, never with women who are not clearly senior citizens or women who have perhaps dropped something by mistake.

"I'm sorry, ma'am, I think you dropped your wallet." That way, she'll be grateful to you, not insulted.

Use at your own risk, Xie.

I tried to make it clear, but I hope my mangled punctuation doesn't confuse you. The use of "ma'am" was the topic of two threads here, so you can see that knowing how to use it is important for many people.

But after all, if you can use Sir and Madam in parts in the Anglosphere, but sometimes it's risky even for you, KT, and some others of you guys, what sounds, perhaps, universally neutral?

In my language, I use Sir for almost all adult males, "you" directly to young men (or teenage) and boys. I use Miss/Ms (it's the same) for almost all adult females, "you" directly to young women (or teenage) and girls. I use "kids" to people who are clearly before their teens. And some other more informal titles to elderly people, classmates, etc.

To my knowledge, there don't seem to be many alternatives of Sir and Madam, both of them.

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Another not very related issue

Although I still looked younger than I was in Germany, because of my Asian features, people clearly referred to me as a "Sie" (formal you) and young man, etc. But I gather that, just as in North America and elsewhere in Europe, I could run into this kind of risk above very easily, because many people apparently look multiple years older than their real age. Our usual assumption, well, you may say a prejudice, is that white young women often look 5 years to 10 years older than their real age.

That said, I can often tell if they're really beyond thirty something. To be fair, although many Chinese praise their female counterparts to be young-looking even after thirty - which may also be a very attractive feature to some foreign men - I can tell that Chinese women age just at the same rate as white women. The only permanent differences are that many of them are very often much shorter, slimmer, don't get tanned at all, and develop wrinkles far more slowly. If they look like thirty, similarly, most probably they are.

As for "madam", it's quite linguistic in nature. See? I can use Miss/Ms freely for all kinds of adult women.... probably except really old women, who would actually like being called "beautiful woman", "sister", "granny" in my society. Granny is usual even in formal situations. But sister... you can only use it for women 40 or above, when they look clearly aging. Oh, I find these kinds of titles very interesting to use. No matter I'm twenty or seventy, Chinese men can freely call me a "brother".

Xie, I don't think you need to worry too much about mastering English. You're already there. I don't know what your speech sounds like, but your writing is completely and utterly proficient.

As for the ma'am and sir thing: I grew up on the East Coast of the US, where those terms are used sparingly, if at all. Easterners aren't much for cordiality. And they have no interest in deference. Sir and ma'am are ass-kissing words there. When I would visit my relatives in the South, I was too young to grasp that there's a real cultural difference that governs the use of ma'am and sir there -- Southerners pride themselves on manners to the point of courtliness, and they say sir and ma'am constantly. But it's not really about relative social status, as it would be inthe East; in the South these are just polite forms of address. Even wives and husbands use them toward each other, and children are definitely expected to use them with their parents and other elders.

Here in the Southwest, a little of that politeness has seeped across the great expanse of Texas to infuse itself into our region, and I suppose it doesn't hurt that Spanish and the traditional Mexican culture encourages a certain amount of politeness and formality. Sir and ma'am have crept into my own speech now, even though my eight-year-old self would have been horrified to hear such things coming out of my mouth. However, I use them very consciously to project politeness -- especially when I really don't feel like being polite at all (like pretty much every day at work, where I am forced to suffer fools and assholes in equal amounts). Saying sir and ma'am when I really ache to say dipshit not only allows me to maintain my professional decorum, but almost has an instant calming effect on me, as if faking humility actually allows me to actually BE humble when I really just want to be irate. I don't know if there's some sort of conditioning effect at work here or what, but it's something I've really noticed in the last few years.