It's not about minority languages only, by the way, I notice more and more francophones are starting to realize other languages are equally valued as French is. They're also learning other big languages, more than they did before. I think the number of francophone Belgians knowing to speak Dutch never has been as high as today, especially the higher class younger generation seems to take over a normal non-chauvinistic stance to the most spoken language of the country, which is a good tendency IMO.
Current status of Occitan?
Cette page a été supprimée. Le journal des suppressions et des déplacements est affiché ci-dessous pour référence.
<<It's not about minority languages only, by the way, I notice more and more francophones are starting to realize other languages are equally valued as French is. They're also learning other big languages, more than they did before. I think the number of francophone Belgians knowing to speak Dutch never has been as high as today, especially the higher class younger generation seems to take over a normal non-chauvinistic stance to the most spoken language of the country, which is a good tendency IMO.>>
If you're Flemish you're not in the best place to speak about French or francophone 'mentality'
You don't respect the minority languages in your own territory (to be a 'good Flemish' you have to speak Flemish...or Dutch...yes I know it's the same language, I heard everything) but there are a lot of francophone in Flanders, in the Brussels's (or Bruxelles) suburb and you want to split this famous BHV region to assmiliate them in your "Great Flemish Culture".
I don't understand...are you doing like France during the XIX century with reginal languages? You want to eradicate the French language in Flanders?
Before criticize French people you should control if you're clear yourself.
If you're Flemish you're not in the best place to speak about French or francophone 'mentality'
You don't respect the minority languages in your own territory (to be a 'good Flemish' you have to speak Flemish...or Dutch...yes I know it's the same language, I heard everything) but there are a lot of francophone in Flanders, in the Brussels's (or Bruxelles) suburb and you want to split this famous BHV region to assmiliate them in your "Great Flemish Culture".
I don't understand...are you doing like France during the XIX century with reginal languages? You want to eradicate the French language in Flanders?
Before criticize French people you should control if you're clear yourself.
This is not comparible, mon ami. Flemish immigrants to Wallonia also assimilate to francophone culture, over years, and there are many (and the flow always keeps coming, which is normal isn't it?)... The facilitations for Dutch-speaking in Comines and Mouscron are hardly existant, at all.
Francophones in BHV are not a supressed minority, but a tool for serving a possible expansion of a 'bilingual' (in practice actually francophone) zone.
Francophones in the BHV arrondissement of Flemish Brabant are able to vote for parties in Brussels, even though they don't live in Brussels.
This so-called 'supressed minority' is agressively steered by the elite to increase over years, and when one of these francophones dares to actively use Dutch to Dutch-speaking inhabitants, they're seen as traitors, it's nothing more than gallo-belgicism.
Even the fact that Flemish want to control the francophone education paid by the Flemish community, pisses off the Belgian francophone community in general, even though no German speaking Belgium complain to the fact Wallonia controls the German education.
But heck, I know of which stance you are, good thing that the Beulemans-speaking may scream what they like, we're not impressed when you write about your 'Wallobrux' ideas nor when you talk about Flemish fascist eating francophone babies.
Francophones in BHV are not a supressed minority, but a tool for serving a possible expansion of a 'bilingual' (in practice actually francophone) zone.
Francophones in the BHV arrondissement of Flemish Brabant are able to vote for parties in Brussels, even though they don't live in Brussels.
This so-called 'supressed minority' is agressively steered by the elite to increase over years, and when one of these francophones dares to actively use Dutch to Dutch-speaking inhabitants, they're seen as traitors, it's nothing more than gallo-belgicism.
Even the fact that Flemish want to control the francophone education paid by the Flemish community, pisses off the Belgian francophone community in general, even though no German speaking Belgium complain to the fact Wallonia controls the German education.
But heck, I know of which stance you are, good thing that the Beulemans-speaking may scream what they like, we're not impressed when you write about your 'Wallobrux' ideas nor when you talk about Flemish fascist eating francophone babies.
Nah, 'Bruxellois independists' rather want Walloon Brabant + Brussels periphery + Brussels to form one union.
By the way, your native French also doesn't sound like 'real French'. Non peut êtes, toi tu ne sais vraiment rien. You call that French?
The one and only small Dutch-speaking school in Comines isn't even recognized by your 'French Community' Ever seen 'Les sorcières de Comines'? In the early 80s Dutch-speaking children had to go through a horde of insults from French-speaking activists, because they saw it as a 'humiliation' of having a Flemish school on francophone soil.
In Flanders people respect the French language, most even agree that, despite the chauvinism that exists on both sides (I admit that Flemish people aren't always nice company to have, you have douchebags everywhere), it's a good thing that French is compulsory in their schools.
In Flanders people respect the French language, most even agree that, despite the chauvinism that exists on both sides (I admit that Flemish people aren't always nice company to have, you have douchebags everywhere), it's a good thing that French is compulsory in their schools.
Baldewin,
I clearly see and understand what you said, the attitude of the French Community in Belgium can be also very disgusting, it's a shame to insult children because of their language, but it was during the 80s, the thing changed.
The Flemish Community is taking the power in Belgium, the Prime Minister is always Flemish, you're controlling the Belgian economy. You're just forgetting the French-speaking regions (and the German one) and the Walloon have a bad feeling about that.
BHV is another story, there are a lot of NATIVE francophones in the Brussels periphery and they can vote for francophone parties I agree, but if the Flemish Community splits BHV they will have to vote for Flemish parties and to be judge in Flemish...Is it normal in regions like Rhode St Genese or Linkebeek where francophones are the majority?
Maybe there were some problems in Comines but currently the situation is quite appeased (and the difficulties between the Flemish and the French speaking parts are growing in Flanders).
I try to discuss to understand the Flemish point of view. But I see it's becoming impossible to live together, our cultures are too different, all these fights between Walloon and Flemish are annoying, maybe a separation would be better for us.
I don't want to impress you with the "Wallobrux" idea, personnaly I think it would be better to join France...I don't know...
I'm sure this BHV story will split Belgium...:(
Et je suis un vrai francophone, je pense que mon niveau d'anglais le prouve assez.
I clearly see and understand what you said, the attitude of the French Community in Belgium can be also very disgusting, it's a shame to insult children because of their language, but it was during the 80s, the thing changed.
The Flemish Community is taking the power in Belgium, the Prime Minister is always Flemish, you're controlling the Belgian economy. You're just forgetting the French-speaking regions (and the German one) and the Walloon have a bad feeling about that.
BHV is another story, there are a lot of NATIVE francophones in the Brussels periphery and they can vote for francophone parties I agree, but if the Flemish Community splits BHV they will have to vote for Flemish parties and to be judge in Flemish...Is it normal in regions like Rhode St Genese or Linkebeek where francophones are the majority?
Maybe there were some problems in Comines but currently the situation is quite appeased (and the difficulties between the Flemish and the French speaking parts are growing in Flanders).
I try to discuss to understand the Flemish point of view. But I see it's becoming impossible to live together, our cultures are too different, all these fights between Walloon and Flemish are annoying, maybe a separation would be better for us.
I don't want to impress you with the "Wallobrux" idea, personnaly I think it would be better to join France...I don't know...
I'm sure this BHV story will split Belgium...:(
Et je suis un vrai francophone, je pense que mon niveau d'anglais le prouve assez.
BTW, it was very late and that's why I used such a hot-headed language and I also exaggerated. Only some very old people from the Marollen speak like that, I am aware of that. ;) It's like those Flemings from poor families who didn't go to school and who only speak unintelligible dialect even for most Dutch speakers themselves, only very old people.
For that BHV thing, it's very delicate matter indeed, in 1962, when the facilitations were settled, the francophones were still the minority over there, whilst now some towns have a majority of French-speaking. It's also exploited a lot in both our medias.
Actually I don't care if Belgium would split in such a scenario TBH. I'm surely against facilitations for francophones who recently moved in... It's indeed true that there always was a fear for Flemish to emancipate and eventually rule whole of Belgium, which was supposed to be some mini-state to accommodate to francophone elites. This is the only reason they made our country federal, to stretch out the existence of Belgium. Not long ago federalists were considered as 'traitors'.
Everyone knows how Belgium was created. A small elite of revolutionaries (steered from French infiltrant volunteers) wanted to separate from the Netherlands in order to join France later on, but the British wouldn't allow that (but they saw a great chance in dealing a blow to the economy of a vital concurrent, so they supported the revolution at least). The British forced king Leopold I upon these revolutionaries.
He himself knew his country was 'fake, and didn't expect he would stay on his throne. Something happened however, Belgium became a country to be loved by those who enjoy power which it still is to this very day.
For that BHV thing, it's very delicate matter indeed, in 1962, when the facilitations were settled, the francophones were still the minority over there, whilst now some towns have a majority of French-speaking. It's also exploited a lot in both our medias.
Actually I don't care if Belgium would split in such a scenario TBH. I'm surely against facilitations for francophones who recently moved in... It's indeed true that there always was a fear for Flemish to emancipate and eventually rule whole of Belgium, which was supposed to be some mini-state to accommodate to francophone elites. This is the only reason they made our country federal, to stretch out the existence of Belgium. Not long ago federalists were considered as 'traitors'.
Everyone knows how Belgium was created. A small elite of revolutionaries (steered from French infiltrant volunteers) wanted to separate from the Netherlands in order to join France later on, but the British wouldn't allow that (but they saw a great chance in dealing a blow to the economy of a vital concurrent, so they supported the revolution at least). The British forced king Leopold I upon these revolutionaries.
He himself knew his country was 'fake, and didn't expect he would stay on his throne. Something happened however, Belgium became a country to be loved by those who enjoy power which it still is to this very day.
http://www.parlamento.it/parlam/leggi/99482l.htm
1. In attuazione dell'articolo 6 della Costituzione e in armonia con i princípi generali stabiliti dagli organismi europei e internazionali, la Repubblica tutela la lingua e la cultura delle popolazioni albanesi, catalane, germaniche, greche, slovene e croate e di quelle parlanti il francese, il franco-provenzale, il friulano, il ladino, l'occitano e il sardo.
1. In attuazione dell'articolo 6 della Costituzione e in armonia con i princípi generali stabiliti dagli organismi europei e internazionali, la Repubblica tutela la lingua e la cultura delle popolazioni albanesi, catalane, germaniche, greche, slovene e croate e di quelle parlanti il francese, il franco-provenzale, il friulano, il ladino, l'occitano e il sardo.
I don't know the reality of Belgium, but one possible solution to the two main peoples in Belgium, the Dutch and the French is a third neutral language.
Brussels is the capital of the European Union also. So, you can add English as fourth official language of the country, or as official economic language. This language can be the bridge between the two communities.
There are also other languages like Latin, Indoeuropean, or even Spanish or German.
The use of this third neutral language by the Government can be good by all Belgians.
What do you think about?
Brussels is the capital of the European Union also. So, you can add English as fourth official language of the country, or as official economic language. This language can be the bridge between the two communities.
There are also other languages like Latin, Indoeuropean, or even Spanish or German.
The use of this third neutral language by the Government can be good by all Belgians.
What do you think about?
<<The use of this third neutral language by the Government can be good by all Belgians.>>
It is artificial problem. If Francophones will not ignore, will learn and speak Dutch in the same degree,as Flemish learn and speak French, it is possible to avoid of Belgium split.
It is artificial problem. If Francophones will not ignore, will learn and speak Dutch in the same degree,as Flemish learn and speak French, it is possible to avoid of Belgium split.
Gogo and Baldewin,
forgive my ignorance on Belgian affairs, but could you two clarify some things for me?
- Walonia is Franco-Belgian in the sense that it has always been a Oil-speaking zone and French (Francien, Langue du Roi, Parisien, Ille-de-France etc) obviously became the de-facto literary, judicial and administrative language at some stage in its development, and later it became officially so. Ok. But Walloon, a different Oil tounge as distinct as Picard, Norman or Champenois, was surely the local language (even at a minor administrative and a literary level) until the prestige of French made it retreat to become a mostly spoken language. Right? (if so, can you please give a timescale?)
But I'm just curious as to how this affected identity; despite there being a high level of mutual intelligibility between Walloon and French, how sincere is/was the sense of attachment to the French language as a central component of Walloon identity. Whilst I can understand how other neigbouring Oil languages became eroded under the influence of French, at the very least we can attribute this erosion to not only economic & social convenience but also to official national policy, occurring within the French nation's boundaries. But Wallonia only sporadically composed part of the territory of France, right? Briefly after the Franco-Dutch War of the 1670s? As such, it wouldn't have faced the same nationalistic motives to promote and learn French as would have happened inside of France in Picard, Norman regions et al.
How does this impact on Walloon identity?
thanks
forgive my ignorance on Belgian affairs, but could you two clarify some things for me?
- Walonia is Franco-Belgian in the sense that it has always been a Oil-speaking zone and French (Francien, Langue du Roi, Parisien, Ille-de-France etc) obviously became the de-facto literary, judicial and administrative language at some stage in its development, and later it became officially so. Ok. But Walloon, a different Oil tounge as distinct as Picard, Norman or Champenois, was surely the local language (even at a minor administrative and a literary level) until the prestige of French made it retreat to become a mostly spoken language. Right? (if so, can you please give a timescale?)
But I'm just curious as to how this affected identity; despite there being a high level of mutual intelligibility between Walloon and French, how sincere is/was the sense of attachment to the French language as a central component of Walloon identity. Whilst I can understand how other neigbouring Oil languages became eroded under the influence of French, at the very least we can attribute this erosion to not only economic & social convenience but also to official national policy, occurring within the French nation's boundaries. But Wallonia only sporadically composed part of the territory of France, right? Briefly after the Franco-Dutch War of the 1670s? As such, it wouldn't have faced the same nationalistic motives to promote and learn French as would have happened inside of France in Picard, Norman regions et al.
How does this impact on Walloon identity?
thanks