Scots-Irish, and Appalachian English (a thread for Damian)

Jasper   Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:53 pm GMT
Damian, we've previously discussed the role of the Scots-Irish in the settling of the Appalachians, and their impact on the English language. I now read that they're from Ulster—some with Scottish heritage, some not.

Let's cut to the chase, shall we? I'm wondering if you, a Scotsman, can understand this dialect.

This clip is the closest rendition of what I remember:

http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/dictionary/transcripts/Cable_Fonze.mp3
BENDER   Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:07 pm GMT
…………………………………..|^"¯¯¯¯¯`"^~-,_
………………………………….|';;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;¯'^-,_
…………………………………|;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;¯'~,
………………………………..,|;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;'\,
……………………………….,/;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;,/
………………………………/';;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;/'
……………………………../__„„„„„„_;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;/'
………………..„-~^"¯¯¯¯`"^~-„ . . .:¯"^~-„;;;;;;;;;;;;/
………………ƒ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;'^~„ . . . . .'^~„;;;;;/'
……………...|;;;;;;;;;;;;_„_;;;;;;;;;;;;"~„ . . . . ."\,|'
………………'^~-„_;;;ƒ . .:¯`^~-„;;;;;;;;;`~„ . . .:|'-~^~-„
……………………¯ƒ . . . . . . . ."~-„_;;;;;'~-„_,|;;;;;;;;;')
…………………….|' . . . . . . . .______~-„_;;;¯;;;;;„-~"
……………………'| . . . .„-~^`¯_______"„--~^'^~--„
……………………| . . .ƒ . . ./-^'`¯¯`'^-„,/',-~"¯¯"~-,'\,
……………………| . . .'| . .:|' . . .||||. . '|' |:::::||||:::::'| |\_
……………………| . . .:'\ . .'\ . . . . . .ƒ| |::::::::::::,| |/¯'|
……………………| . . . .:'~-„ `'^~-—-^"||\„`'--„__„--",/'…'|
……………………| . . . . . . .¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯'`^~--„-~^`'…..'|
……………………| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:|……….'|
……………………| . . .:„-~^|¯¯¯|¯¯¯¯|¯¯¯¯|¯`………..|
…………………...|' . . .ƒ'—'|—--'|——|—--„„|„_……….'|
…………………...| . . .'\,__|___'|____|~-,:,ƒ::ƒ"^~„_...|...What kind of party is this?
…………………...| . . . .'~-|„__ .| . . . |¯¯¯|¯`^~-„,///)..'|...There's no booze and only one hooker.
……………..„„-~^`'|„ . . . . . . .¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯'|………….|'
…………„-~" . . . .:¯``^~~--„„„„„_____„„„--~"¯``~-„_….|
………'|¯-„_ . . . .(`¯¯¯`) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .¯'~|
……„-~""¯"^~-„__ |:::::|` . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ._„-'|"\,
…../ . „_ . . .'\, . .,|:::::'|--„„„„„________„„„„„„„----~^" . .'| . '|
…..|^" . ¯\ . . .'| . |'::::::'| . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . ._„„„ . |' . .|\
...,/'-~-„ . .'| . . | .'|::::::::'|~——————-~^"|"`¯ . | . | . ,| "\
.,/' . . . '\ . | . ./' ,/::::::::::'\ . . . . . . . . . . . . '\ . . .|' ,/| . / . .'\
Caspian   Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:52 pm GMT
This sounds similar to a southern drawn from the States - I can understand about 80 - 90% I think.
Guest   Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:54 pm GMT
The Scotch-Irish are Southerners, so of course it is similar...
Damian in Edinburgh   Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:43 pm GMT
Jasper - I have only just noticed this thread - I promise to respond as best I can sometime tomorrow as it is now heading for midnight here and I have to be up and about 06:00hrs - I hate these dark mornings - it doesn't get light here now until gone 07:30hrs and it's dark again before 17:00hrs. Except at weekends I don't see my home in the daylight.

I am off to London on Thurday and then off to Libya on Friday for a week so I wil get the post in tomorrow as I say.
Jasper   Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:32 am GMT
Caspian, I'm wondering what your native dialect is? (I seem to remember that it was RP, but I could be wrong.)
Uriel   Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:42 am GMT
It's interesting that he uses a lot of singular forms for his plurals. With game animals that's common -- hunting bear rather than hunting bears -- but he also does it with some other words like foot for feet. It sounds archaic to me. I had to listen closely to get through his accent, too, even though I have more exposure to Southern speech than a foreigner -- the substitution of "ah" for "ai" is difficult to understand unless you're really paying attention, as when he says "fard" for "fired". I only got that one from context!
Rene   Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:24 pm GMT
That sounds like the stock accent for the baddies in old western movies doesn't it? Not difficult to understand at all, but certainly archaic. Personally, I like it, but I wouldn't want to speak that my way myself.

You've gotta love the begining ("Is that thang ahhn?")
Caspian   Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:36 pm GMT
Yes, it's English RP - but because I live in Devon, I can easily understand the strong accent / dialect that some use here in Devon, and as my grandmother is Irish, I'm a little used to the accent - although it obviously is nowhere near as strong as this man's.

What about you?
Jasper   Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:04 pm GMT
Caspian, I grew up on the isogloss between Southern Inland English and Appalachian English. Often you'd have one neighbor speaking one dialect, one speaking the other, and a third speaking a mixture. Sometimes this mixture would vary even within a family.(Living on an isogloss is interesting this way from a linguistic point of view.)

I spoke primarily Southern Inland Speech, with just a very few Appalachian English usages, probably 95%/5%. My maternal grandfather, a Melungeon, spoke pure Appalachian English, while my paternal relatives, descendants from a dignified old Southern family, spoke none of it at all.

So having been exposed to it on a regular basis, I understood every word of the sample. ;)

Funny thing was, we kids of that generation, wrapped up in 70s space-age thought, were desperately, deeply ashamed of the hillbillies, or anything connected with them. It wasn't until very recently that I began to appreciate the uniqueness of this heritage.
Jasper   Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:33 pm GMT
I just realized that in a recent post, I used the word "passel". I had no idea that this word was an "Appalachian-ism". (chuckles at himself)
Damian in Edinburgh   Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:59 pm GMT
As promised I now reply, Jasper. In spite of the supposed historical strong influence of the Scots and the Irish in certain areas of the developing United States of America, such as in the Appalachian region you mentioned found the speech of this old man quite difficult to understand even after playing it back several times. I concentrated quite intensely but I could only get the gist of what he was saying.

However I did have fun visualing the grey haired, weather beaten grizzly old guy sitting out on his verandah swaying back and forth in his rocking chair relating all this to a young Scotsman from Edinburgh paying him a courtesy call, politely nodding and smiling in feigned comprehension.

Scottish connections from way back or not I would reckon that both of us would encounter problems of communication, but how would I know anyway - he may well have understood everything I said in my 21st century Scottish accent, but I doubt it somehow, unless of course he was a big fan of Gerard Butler, but there again, Gerard Butler's accent is now suffering from a kind of dual personality.

When he is in America his Glasgow accent becomes strangely transformed to a sort of American Scottish, or perhaps it's Scottish American - the last one I would think.

But the moment he lands back at Heathrow Airpot again he miraculously sounds as if he has never strayed far from Sauchiehall Street*in his entire life. He comes over all pure Glaswegian again - all trace of Statesspeak gone.

He's currently living in his London home and he was on GMTV the other morning - again as Scottish as could be. Personally, I don't know what people see in him really - it seems the Americans like him better than do his own countrymen.....well, discounting his countrywomen, who think he is hot I reckon.

He may well understand every word spoken by your Appalachian, Jasper, and I'm pretty sure that would be reciprocated.

Gerard Butler said on TV that each time he returns to the UK the second
he has cleared passport control, immigration, customs and baggage collection he heads straight for the nearest cafe/restaurant and yells out his order in 100% genuine Glaswegian...which would most probably be quite incomprehensible to the individual serving him, who most likely would have come from Romania anyway.

*One of the main shopping streets in Central Glasgow.
Jasper   Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:19 pm GMT
^ Absolutely absorbing, Damian, absolutely absorbing.

I'm not too sure I completely agree with your assessment, though. I understand every single word of standard Scottish English, and can understand Glaswegian with some difficulty. With this in mind, I believe that the old Appalachian geezer could understand Scottish pretty easily.

I have a question to posit to you, Damian, about Glaswegian and Appalachian English. Allow me a moment to formulate the words....

Ok. Often Appalachians and Southerners live side by side, and you'll find that they mix with apparent impunity. Are Glaswegians the same way? That is, one Glaswegian who speaks "proper" Scottish English, living next to another one, who speaks pure Glaswegian, both understanding each other with no problem, no division at all?

(On an unrelated note, I saw very recently an episode of House Hunters that was taped in Edinburgh. I didn't know that there was an Edinburgh dialect, too, that's pretty hard to understand...)
Jasper   Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:51 pm GMT
Damian, to add to the previous post:

Something amusing just occurred to me. If I took one of those hillbillies to Scotland, since I understand both varieties of English equally well, I'd actually have to be a translator! What a hoot!

(BTW, I wish you well with your endeavors in Libya.)
User   Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:11 am GMT
I don't notice much similarity between Southern US English as spoken by the Scotch-Irish and modern Scottish English... They must have diverged quite a bit over the hundreds of years that separate them.