"ize" or "ise"

Adam   Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:27 am GMT
It's a bit like the fact that most British people that that the word "mask" is the way to spell it in Britain. However, "mask" is an Americanism. The proper British way of saying it is "masque".
Adam   Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:30 am GMT
Anyway, I'm going to bed now. I didn't manage to get to bed until 4am last night, then I had to get up at 8am, not it is almost 2.30am and I'm still up.
Kirk   Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:15 am GMT
Great story, Adam. Tell it again sometime. Or, not.
Robert   Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:52 pm GMT
It was either Fowler or Gowers, in Modern English Usage, who insisted that "-ize" is proper British for all verbs coming directly from Greek "-izo/-izein". Most often, however, verbs of this suffix came into English through Norman French and should properly be spelt "-ise". I forget which way MEU said that modern coinages should be handled.

MEU's distinctions must certainly be too fine for modern tastes (Fowler's first edition dates to around WWI and Gowers's second to just after WWII); very few of us have the time these days to stop and remember the etymology of each word before we spell it.

As I look into my crystal ball, I see British publishers adopting U.S. spellings more and more -- as an cost-saving effort. Book publishing has become international and it is simply cheaper to print from a single set of plates.
Brennus   Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:10 pm GMT
The British spellings of these words: organise, pulverise, realise etc. reflects the Norman French influence as does its spelling of the words for center (centre), theater (theatre), color (colour), labor (labour) and harbor (harbour).
Rick Johnson   Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:34 pm GMT
Brennus

I've not actually noticed the use of ise/ize words in middle english, the first examples I can find are from the 16th and 17th centuries where their spelling is nearly always as "ize". The style in 18th Century France had been to use "ise" spellings and Samuel Johnson seemed to often prefer some French spellings, adding these spellings to his 1755 dictionary. The Encyclopaedia Britannica, however, used the "ize" spellings at the same time. While I don't think I've ever seen theatre spelt theater in old literature, center seemed to be quite a popular spelling- I always wonder why he chose enter and not entre and chamber and not chambre!
Kirk   Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:36 pm GMT
<<MEU's distinctions must certainly be too fine for modern tastes (Fowler's first edition dates to around WWI and Gowers's second to just after WWII); very few of us have the time these days to stop and remember the etymology of each word before we spell it.>>

Well of course, most Americans don't do that either. They just learned that from the beginning most [aIz] words were spelled "-ize" with the exception of a few classes of words such as "surprise" "televise" "surmise" which aren't hard to remember. Very rarely will you see spellings like "surprize" and "televize."
Brennus   Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:01 am GMT
Rick Johnson,

Thanks for your reply, and don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from. However, what I really meant was that after the Norman conquest, French became the hoity toity language in England and set a standard for many (though not all) spelling conventions. They have lasted down to this day. By the sixteenth century, the English nobility were beginning to emulate the Dutch as cultural role models rather than the French, however, French still remained the prestige language of British aristocrats until about the time of the Second World War. The American colonists were free from some of this Norman feudal legacy and in the process developed some of their own democratic institutions and spelling conventions which were based more upon how the words sounded to their ears.
Rick Johnson   Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:03 am GMT
Brennus

I totally agree!
Sabrina   Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:35 am GMT
I'll be perfectly honest: "-ise" is effeminate as compared to "-ize".

Other Commonwealth suffixes, such as "-our" and "-re", are quite elegant. Not "-ise", which in most cases gives the writer a waifish edge. "-ize", on the other hand...has a harsh, but vigourous tone.
Joey B   Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:18 pm GMT
<'ll be perfectly honest: "-ise" is effeminate as compared to "-ize".

Other Commonwealth suffixes, such as "-our" and "-re", are quite elegant. Not "-ise", which in most cases gives the writer a waifish edge. "-ize", on the other hand...has a harsh, but vigourous tone.>

Should that not be vigorous!
Kirk   Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:43 pm GMT
<<I'll be perfectly honest: "-ise" is effeminate as compared to "-ize".

Other Commonwealth suffixes, such as "-our" and "-re", are quite elegant. Not "-ise", which in most cases gives the writer a waifish edge. "-ize", on the other hand...has a harsh, but vigourous tone.>>

Those comments are entirely subjective, which is fine, but just don't say them like they're undisputed fact. Claiming "-ise" is effeminate and "-our" is elegant is not any more a scientific fact than is proclaiming that canned peas taste disgusting (which I think they do, by the way).
Frances   Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:54 am GMT
Yes like what Joel said re NZ, I think "-ize" might be getting more preference in Australia. I heard strangly that a "z" is cheaper to print than an "s" key and that is why all scientific articles are written with a "z"
Kirk   Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:54 am GMT
<<Yes like what Joel said re NZ, I think "-ize" might be getting more preference in Australia. I heard strangly that a "z" is cheaper to print than an "s" key and that is why all scientific articles are written with a "z">>

Haha! Never woulda guessed that as a reason for "-ize!"
greg   Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:03 pm GMT
Bien que la terminaison <eur> [9R] soit très répandue en français contemporain, l'ancien et le moyen franàais accusaient une grande variété orthographique pouvant affecter à la fois plusieurs mots ou un seul et même mot.

Sigles : AF = ancien français, AFOM = ancien français d'outre-manche, MF = moyen français, Fr = français (moderne) et An = anglais.

TERMINAISON <OR>
AF <favor>, <fervor>, <flaor> = An <flavour>/<flavor>, <flor> = An <flour>/<flower>, <honor>/<onor>, <humor>/<umor>, <odor>, <parleor>, <rancor> et <rigor>;
AFOM <favor>, <fervor>, <rancor> et <rigor>.

TERMINAISON <UR>
AF <clour>, <honur>/<onur>, <humur>/<umur>, <odur>, <parleur>;
AFOM <flur> = An <flour>/<flower>, <honur>/<onur> er <parlur>.

TERMINAISON <OUR>
AF <clamour>, <flaour> = An <flavour>/<flavor>, <flour> = An <flour>/<flower>, <labour>, <rancour>, <rigour>, <savour>/<savoure>, <savëour> = An <saviour>/<savior>, <valour> et <vapour>;
AFOM <honour>/<onour>, <odour>;
MF <esplendour>.

TERMINAISON <EIR>
AF <en deveir> ~ Fr <en devoir> [Ãd@vwaR] = An <endeavour>/<endeavor>.

TERMINAISON <ER>
AF/Fr <(se) démener> = An <demeanour>/<demeanor>.