Neutral accent

LEARN LEARN LEARN   Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:48 pm GMT
“And I'm a Canadian living in London, thus unlike you, not just a "foreigner" passing through but a subject of the Queen.”

Dude! Ironically despite being a “servant of the Queen”.You are definitely the foreigner expatriate here ! As an Italian, I am an EU-national. According with the European Union treaty - who is NOT subject to any UK immigration policy. And Virtually any EU country can be my country where I can freely work and live!

Besides that, you definitely have an inferiority complex as the Brits look very, very, very down at North American accent. Including Canadian. For them you’re just a Yank.

As you already notice, Brits call the North Americans (including Canadians) -SEPTICS (septic tank) from Yank.

I think you’re hardly trying to ignore and deny that ! But unfortunately that’s the reality !

As many Britons stated here, Accents favouritism still exist in the UK ! As it does in the US.
Tiffany   Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:03 am GMT
<<I believe Northern Californian accent is the most neutral US accent :) although it's a CaughtCot merger accent.>>

Apparently the CVS makes it ditinctly un-GAE.

<<I hadn't realized the word order made a difference>>

Yes, word order makes a great difference here. It seems strange that it does across the pond, but then many things here have such similar names, distinction is called for.
Kirk   Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:31 am GMT
<<Apparently the CVS makes it ditinctly un-GAE.>>

Well, something that should be mentioned is also that an academic perspective of "General American" may differ from what a non-academic view of it. For many people, if you don't sound like you're from the South, Brooklyn, Boston, or possibly some of the Northern Cities, you speak "General American" (or "without an accent"). This is why, at least from a common perspective, "General American" is often more defined by what it isn't than what it is.

From an academic point of view the CVS is certainly not a GAE feature but from a non-academic point of view a Californian accent (assumedly one with CVS influences) may or may not be perceived as "General American" depending on who you ask.
Tiffany   Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:35 am GMT
Good, because I certainly think it's GAE... :)
Jason   Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:40 am GMT
<<To practically everyone in the UK under the age of 30 (maybe 40+) class really doesn't matter at all! To us it's something out of history and has no relevance really any more. I've already stated before in this Forum that RP really is a sort of handicap in many ways, especially socially. To appear snobbish, even in Southern England, is certainly not cool at all and is subject to ridicule really. That's why all those old films look so weird and ridiculuous to us nowadays.

Similarly, a "posh" accent is also seen very much as a disadvantage now, whereas years ago perhaps it would not have been so. Most people (especially the younger) from any part of the UK tend to cringe when they hear some extremely posh RP accent! There is a particular art critic on the English media who has one of the most toe curling excruciatingly painful mega "posh" accent imaginable. Give me a Scouser any time of the day.>>

Below is an excerpt from a message i posted on a diffrent thread:

I'm actually an RP speaker (or so I've been told by numerous Brits in one form or another) who grew up in continental Europe. (My favourite occasion was when I was queueing up to gain admittance to a popular London nightclub and the lad standing behind me asked me: "Where are you from? You have a posh accent". I actually made very little of it and changed the subject. Although I was extremely flattered, I tend to take compliments somewhat modestly and with reserve).

Now what am I supposed to do if I should wish to move to England and procur gainful employment there? For better or for worse, RP is the ONLY "British accent" I am fluent in. I CAN pull off a pretty good GAE accent but I don't want to be associated with any of the negative stereotypes that Europeans have about Americans (especially with the current US administration). At the same time, I don't want to be thought of as "posh" or "uppity". I received a British education while growing up in Greece and RP was "the" accent in which the instruction took place. One English gentleman I met who was staying in the room next to mine at a hotel an aunt of mine owns in a resort town in the south-west corner of Crete told me that my accent is actually rather posh but that I should not change the way in which I feel comfortable speaking just to try and please everyone. This man is married to a German woman and currently lives in Germany. He told me he used to have a slight regional accent but he lost it and started speaking non-accented British English (RP) since he moved to Germany. His children speak German with a German accent but they also speak English with what he called an "English" accent. I'm in a similar situation. I speak Greek with a Greek accent but I speak English with an RP accent. I COULD put on a Greek accent when speaking English but that would sound so awful on everyone's ears (including my own) and it's NOT something I feel comfortable doing. I COULD try to learn one of the regional English accents but where on earth would I find ESL materials in Cockney or Scouse? Besides, I really don't feel like learning a whole new vowel system or mastering the ENDLESS dipthong shifts associated with Cockney (not to mention glottalization of 't' and vocalization of 'l'). If people are going to be narrow-minded and instantly assume I'm a twit because of my RP accent then I should probably just stay the bloody hell away from England. On the other hand, I could simply live and work in England, continue to speak RP, and let those Englishmen who would presume to pass judgement on me wallow in the misery and bitterness that must come from knowing that a "foreigner" talks better (or more "proper") then they do.

Of course, it's also possible that people won't judge me, that they'll welcome me and my RP accent, and maybe even praise me on my excellent command and elocution of the English language. I just don't know how I'll be received as a long-term resident. As a matter of fact, most taxi drivers, shoppe owners, and museum guards don't seem to mind my RP accent. Then again, these people have to be polite to tourists and clients. I just don't know how things would be if I were to actually live in London (or elsewhere in England) and have to interact with neighbours, colleagues, shoppe owners, and the British bureaucracy on a regular basis.

What advice could you give me? Should I attempt to abandon an accent which I consider standard and nice-sounding in order to try and fit in? ... or should I just continue to use RP and and not mind what other people may think? I have never adopted a "snotty", judgemental, or condescending attitude towards any English speaker (be he/she RP speaking or not with "not" usually being the case). I don't see why anyone should adopt such an attitude towards me.

Comments? Suggestions? Advice?
Kirk   Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:01 am GMT
<<Good, because I certainly think it's GAE... :)>>

Haha, ok :)
Jason   Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:56 pm GMT
Why is it that the really serious, intelligent, messages calling out for advice never get any responses?

It seems to me that this message board is simply being used by people who have "an ax to grind".
Jason   Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:22 pm GMT
"Ax" can also be spelled "axe", the latter being the more popular spelling in the UK.
Jason   Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:36 pm GMT
You know... it has been said that silence sometimes speaks volumes. I guess if what I said in my long message above had no truth to it or if it were misrepresenting the facts then I would be receiving all sorts of flaming messages. However, I think that what I've said is accurate. Come to think of it, I don't need anyone's permission to speak RP nor do I have to go through any kind of application process. I'll just speak the way I want to and the way I know how and I'll let other people do the same. As long as we understand each other that's really all that matters. I'm not judgemental of others. If other people want to be judgemental of me then fuck them. Period. End of discussion. Happy New Year!
Mxsmanic   Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:14 am GMT
Just speak as you speak. If you have no foreign accent, that's about the best you can do. It's useless to try to change among British accents, because each one is likely to irritate someone, somewhere. You cannot please everyone. If you switch to GAE you eliminate any preconceived notions about where you were born in the U.K. or what social class you might belong to, and so on, but you also take on the burden of whatever others might think about Americans.

You could try an Australian pronunciation. I don't know what sort of associations that conjures up in the U.K., but they are probably not as strong as those that come to mind for people with British pronunciations.

You could move to the U.S. and speak GAE (or stick with a British accent), as Americans care far less about accents, with their own pronunciations being so homogenous and much more geographical than socioeconomic.

Is English your native language? If not, are you sure that you have no foreign accent? You can speak RP and still have a foreign accent as well.
Jason   Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:26 am GMT
I'm positive I have no foreign accent. I actually grew up bilingual. It's a long story. None of British people I mentioned above ever told me I have any trace of a foreign accent and most Americans I meet in Europe immediately jump to the conclusion that I'm British (which I take as a mixed compliment). If you were to talk to me face to face for a few minutes (or even a few seconds) you would probably identify my accent as RP, possibly U-RP since I use a tapped intervocalic 'r' (I also do this with linking 'r' and intrusive 'r'). I also never confuse the tapped 'r' with the Greek or Spanish rolled 'r' which is similar but of a greater duration and degree. My vowels are all as they should be and I also use smoothing in words like "fire" and "tower". Some people attempting to imitate RP (especially Americans) don't realise that it involves A LOT more than just making your accent non-rhotic. For example, in "The Fellowship of the Ring", Gandolph (who is played by RP-speaking Ian McLellan) uses smoothing in pronouncing the word "shire" but Frodo (who is played by an American actor) uses a near-RP non-rhotic pronunciation in which "shire" does not undergo smooothing. I also recently heard an advertissement for the movie "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" in which the speaker, in pronouncing the title of the movie, uses the "fleece" vowel rather than the "kit" vowel for final 'y' in Harry and fails to use smoothing in his non-rhotic pronunciation of the word "fire". As you can see, I kind of know my "shit".

In any case, Mxsmanic, your post is the most intelligent one I've read so far and it also seems to make the most sense. You managed to sum up the situation extremely well in three very brief paragraphs. For now, I'll probably stick to RP and work on my GAE for when I visit the US. Some of you might say that changing your accent depending on the envirionment you're in and the social circumstances is utterly ridiculous. However, don't we dress a certain way depending on the occasion? You dress one way for occasion X but in a totally different way for occasion Y). Would you go to New Year's Eve black tie party in your golf outfit or wear a tuxedo and black bowtie in a golf tournament? Some people change their hair colour 300 times, get tattoos and piercings, and even undergo plastic surgery in order to look different from what they "normally" look. For some strange reason they don't seem to get as much criticism as people who change their accents even though changing your accent does not involve any harsh chemicals or needles or incisions and it's very easy to go back if you change your mind or don't like the results (something which is difficult with hair colour, very difficult with piercings, extremely difficult with tattoos, and nearly impossible with plastic surgery). For example, Madonna received a lot of bashing for her "british" accent (even on The Simpsons) but very little criticism (comparitively speaking) over the 27,000 times she has changed her hair colour and not nearly as much criticism with regard to some of the crazy stunts she has pulled in some of her concerts and videos. I, personally, don't give a damn what kind of accent Madonna uses when speaking as long as she can sing.
Borat live from MTV   Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:54 am GMT
Madonna very good at 2005 MTV Euro awards! Very good voice miming and you never know he was transvetite. Good job, Madonna, at hiding your "khum" as we say in Kazakh!
Rick Johnson   Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:47 am GMT
<<"shire" but Frodo (who is played by an American actor) uses a near-RP non-rhotic pronunciation in which "shire" does not undergo smooothing.>>

Not all English accents are non-rhotic. His friend "Sam" has a West Country sounding accent which is needs to be rhotic to sound authentic.

The reason many people in Britain do not like "ultra-RP", is less to do with the accent and more to do with the body language of the people associated with this type of speech. Many speakers suffer an unfortunate paralysis of the top lip, sometimes extending to the rest of the body as an inability to express themselves through their hands and their arms. As a Greek, this is something you would probably find difficult as Greeks tend to express themselves through their whole bodies.

For instance if I were to do an impression of a Greek or Italian I would throw my arms wide and roll them outwards as I speak. For a Frenchman I pull my upper arms into my sides, bend my arms with my palms upwards, pull a face and complain "urgh your British food, it is shit!"
For a British RP speaker I would stand very straight move little and possibly pretend to hold a pipe by my chest. A southern slack-jawed yokel accent tends to be accompanied by a slouch. If I do a Texan accent, my voice becomes louder, my body language forceful and my gait wide. My Queensand accent is fast and short with movements from side to side- sort of like Steve Irwin.

I guess people by this point think I completely crazy, but honestly try to do a range of different accents without moving your body. For me an accent is is often accompanied by a physical attitude.
Jason   Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:56 am GMT
Actually, Rick, I've been told on numerous occasions that I'm not typically Greek at all (both in terms of physical appearance and general personality and outlook). ...and yes, I HAVE noticed the top-lip paralysis phenomenon on the few occasions I've observed myself speaking RP English in front of a mirror (like when I'm thinking out loud about something or other). It's actually quite funny you should mention it.

With regard to <<"shire" but Frodo (who is played by an American actor) uses a near-RP non-rhotic pronunciation in which "shire" does not undergo smooothing.>>

Not all English accents are non-rhotic. His friend "Sam" has a West Country sounding accent which is needs to be rhotic to sound authentic.>>

The thing is, Rick, that Frodo was not trying to imitate a non-rhotic English accent (which is probably not as common as it may have been at one time now that everyone and his mother has moved to London - the only two people I've ever met with such an accent were old men). In any case, it seems to me that Frodo was likely trying to imitate the RP version of British English (he uses broad 'a' in "bath" words although perhaps not consistently) and he didn't quite meet that goal. I also realise that many characters on that movie have non-RP accents associated with the British Isles. It would be ridiculous if even the comic or silly characters spoke RP (although C3PO on "Star Wars" speaks RP and still sounds rather comic to me).

As far as Sam goes, I kind of thought I recognised him from other movies but because of his hobbit-like appearance (which was partially a result of camera technology) it took me a while to realise that it was Sean Astin (an actor I've always considered as a very "all-American boy" - he even played a football player in that movie "Rudy"). He does manage to pull off the West Country accent rather well (although at times it seems to have Irish affinities to it). One must remember, however, that the West Country accent does bear a little bit more resemblance to GAE than most other British accents. Still, there are time when it seems that his American is coming through.

What I'd really like to know is what you all think of the creature Gollum's accent (dismissing, of course, the absurd voice quality and the poor grammar he uses at times - i.e. "they wants the precious"). To me it seems like a hodge-podge of British and American English with maybe just a trace of Cockney.

...Oh my God! How did we manage (or how did I manage) to digress this far???
Mxsmanic   Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:50 pm GMT
I don't think it's unreasonable to have a variety of accents to use to suit different situations; it does help you fit in, and it can facilitate communication.

I see language as a tool, not as an aspect of personality. This being so, changing one's accent for specific purposes makes as much sense as changing one's clothing or carrying a different box of tools. It is, however, rather difficult for most people to master multiple pronunciations, even of their native languages, and so perhaps for that reason it is uncommon to see people who adapt the accent to the situation.