BrE and AmE inevitably together?

It's me but I'm anonymous   Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:26 pm GMT
Suppose a learner can't really choose. There might be several reasons. For example, you might be more likely to go or move to the UK in the future, but you might be more likely to hear or read American English (in movies, books, etc). Also, you are going to hear or read both varieties anyway, and you can't predict when and how much you'll come into contact with one or the other. You know, you might read three American Books in a row, and then start to watch Britain's Got Talent regularly.
I think this situation actually applies to most ESL students. Those who study on their own and are self-taught can then choose: some British English or some General American English?

So the question is, can you really choose what to learn? In this case, it looks like you can't choose, because you really need both. If you need both, is it possible to learn to use both of them, and is that really worth it? And I think it'd be better to keep them separate, but how easy is that? Becoming bidialectal in a second language is definitely quite an achievement.

What I'm saying is that I will come across words and differences like:
On second thought/ On second thoughts (different idioms)
telly (different informal vocabulary)
truck / lorry (different common vocabulary)
dictionary = /dɪkʃənɛri/ - /dɪkʃənəri/ (different stress and phonemes)
teacher = /titʃər/ - /tɪitʃə/ (different sounds)
Manchester United is/are winning (different grammar)

You see, there are really a lot of differences. But if keeping two varieties separate is too difficult or not worth it, then should I mix them together? Should I come up with a new personal dialect? Like, with flexible grammar and rich vocabulary taken from both varieties, and an accent that has features of both AmE and BrE? I haven't tried, but I'm afraid it might come out awful...

What's your opinion on this issue? Thank you.
Guest   Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:28 pm GMT
You can learn to speak one and understand the other.
Uriel   Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:15 am GMT
Standard English is pretty similar in every country, even if pronunciations vary. Don't sweat it too much. You are not likely to pass for a native of either country unless you get really, really good, and you will only get to that point if you actually pick a dialect to work on specifically. (Even natives of one country can't pass for natives of another without a ton of accent and dialect practice!)
???   Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:04 pm GMT
I agree with Uriel, it's not really anything to worry about as the differences aren't that great, and even where there are differences, it's unlikely to cause misunderstanding. The biggest issue would be differences in vocab, such as truck/lorry as you mentioned. As far as this is concerned, if you really only want to learn the terms commonly used in one of the dialects, you would be better off learning the American words, as Brits (of which I am one) are much more familiar with American English than vice versa due to the influence of films/TV. In fact BrE is becoming more and more Americanised anyway. Nowadays you would be much more likely to hear some one say they are a truck driver than you would have been 20 years ago.

However, there are a few instances where the differences are rather more marked. For example, you should definitely not tell some one in the UK to sit on their fanny lol
Shuimo   Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:37 pm GMT
Shuimo has never found it a prob btw these varieties!

American English is the brand!

British English is just a sub-dialect!
ichoseanoriginalname   Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:18 am GMT
Why did the American founding fathers have to make a new version of English "to make it easier to learn", which ended up making two variants of the language so it is confusing for everyone. So let them become two languages, so the whole English speaking world will become simpler.

Most AmE and BrE differences did not appear over time- many spelling differences first appeared in Noah Webster's dictionary in the early 1800s
Uriel   Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:33 am GMT
The "founding fathers" did nothing of the sort; they were mainly concerned with politics, not linguistics. Nor is American English perceptibly "simpler" than any other variety, of which there are more than two. Dropping a few extraneous U's and transposing the occasional R's and E's are hardly major; we still spell the majority of our words the exact same way that the British do. It isn't any easier to learn -- it has all the same features and structure as any other form of English in terms of verb conjugations, parts of speech, and everything else.

The entire history of English has been one of drastic change from one epoch to another. The differentiation of American English is a mild dialectical development when you compare it to the influx of Norman French or the Great Vowel Shift.
Damian in Edinburgh   Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:50 pm GMT
"Vive la difference!" That's what I say here.....may BrE and AmE forever be at linguistic and accentual variance with each other until the end of time. Extracting the urine out of each other's form of spoken and written English on either side of the Atlantic is too much of a fun trip for it ever to end, and I can't ever imagine a world where both variants eventually meld into some colourless amalgam of nondescript Mid-Atlantic mediocrity. Can you ever imagine us all sounding like clones of Loyd Grossman? What a nightmare that would be - neither one nor t'other!

One of the greatest assets of the English Language is it's considerable variety right across this planet where it became established as the main means of communication over the centuries past, courtesy of British colonialism for the most part.

It would be a sad day when Brits and Americans fail to misunderstand each other linguistically and no longer "take offence" at or completely misconstrue the comments and speech of each other. Believe me, I've witnessed the hilarity and amusement it can produce on a number of occasions on this side of the Atlantic, not to mention confusion.

It seems to cause far more problems for so called English speaking Americans in America when confronted with so called visiting English speaking multi-accented Brits than it does the other way round, by all accounts.

We'd never really want all that to end would we?
Steak 'n' Chips   Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:44 pm GMT
AmE and BrE, in their "standard" forms as taught to ESL students are so close that I'd not even classify them as dialects. Sure, there are a few differences in phonemes, vocabulary and word meanings, but these are few enough that they don't matter. British children regularly watch American television programmes with no problem at all.

Don't worry about what variant you learn or mixing up the two variants a little. Most British people recognise that the popularity of English is strongly driven by the USA, and therefore are neither surprised nor offended to detect an American "twang" in a foreign learner's accent.

If you go for an extended visit to either country, or Australia, NZ, SA, etc, you'll naturally pick up the local style. Even if you don't, few people will notice, since your own natural accent will be the most prominent feature of your speech, which is not a problem in any way as long as you can be understood.

If you really think it's important, take accent reduction classes once you're settled in an English speaking country.
Peppercorn Sauce   Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:38 pm GMT
*British children regularly watch American television programmes with no problem at all. *

I disagree Mr Steak. One of my children has the habit of saying "What the?" or "The Hell!" He can't seem to link the two together to make a decent statement. My other child runs around saying "Oh yer!" in an American accent. I absolutely blame American television for this.

P.S. Should Hell be capitalised?
GF   Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:40 pm GMT
<Extracting the urine out of each other's form of spoken and written English on either side of the Atlantic is too much of a fun trip for it ever to end>

I expect it's a "fun trip" for people who don't have much contact with people from the other side of the Atlantic, or for those who have only recently discovered the linguistic differences; but for everybody else, it's very tiresome indeed.

(Almost as tiresome as saying "extracting the urine" for "taking the piss".)
Pete from Peru   Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:39 pm GMT
But Damian...

That may be cool for you, native speakers... But not very convenient for learners.

However, what learners must accept is that in every language in the world, there are loads different dialects and accents especially in English. And they're not expected to learn or know about or understand all of them.

When my students stop asking why do Americans pronounce it like this and Brits pronounce it differently... That's really satisfying.

Steak 'n' Chips said:

<< Don't worry about what variant you learn or mixing up the two variants a little. Most British people recognise that the popularity of English is strongly driven by the USA, and therefore are neither surprised nor offended to detect an American "twang" in a foreign learner's accent.>>

I don't think so, my friend. I have a friend who has been studying English for about 2 years. And even though she is at an intermediate level, it's nice to see that she has an excellent pronunciation and it sounds noticeably American. She's told me many Brits have corrected the words she used and told her to use the British equivalents. Or for example, corrected the way she pronounced the numbers from 20 to 90, you know silly things like that.

When Brits hear me speaking, I see so many different reactions. Some smile in amusement; some just stay serious and don't look surprised at all, and later ask me "Where did you learn your English?" or "Have you spent some time in England?" or the one I hate: "Why do you speak Queen's English?". And some look at me with a WTF face, and so on.


I believe when you are learning a language you shouldn't worry too much about dialectal differences, acquiring the basics of the language is more important. Once you develop some fluency, then you can start to consider learning things like that. Or even choose a dialect to work on.

Regards
Damian in Edinburgh   Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:56 pm GMT
Pete from Peru:

That was a nice post from you and I fully understand what you said.

I was probably being quite natively British insular and parochial when I hailed the differences between BrE and AmE, with little or no consideration for learners or of the difficulties these differences present for them as they try to study either of these two versions of the English language, or that of any other from across the globe...I'm sorry.

Consider me well and truly electronically chastised.

You quoted this comment directed at you from some of my compatriots:

***or the one I hate: "Why do you speak Queen's English?". And some look at me with a WTF face, and so on***

Sadly, I know only too well how true such comments are......such sentiments are a product of thirteen years of a Labour Government in the UK, one which has made social engineering a fine art in British society since 01 May 1997, one in which there has been a determined effort to lower the social and self improvement sights and standards of the gifted and ambitious up and coming generation in Britain to those of the more socially deprived and under-privileged sections of society where ambition and self improvement and motivation are either at a very low level or absent altogether.

This has been the policiy of this wretched Government - the lowering of standards to meet the needs and "ambitions" of those whose main aim in life is to filch as much tax payers' money as they can via this Government's benign munificence through the social welfare benefits programs so that they can continue to play their computer games in between knocking back pints down the pub before setting out to impregnate the equivalent females thus ensuring a continuance of the welfare dependent lumpen proletariat who coudn't give a tinker's cuss about society at large.

Speaking the Queen's English? Nah, that ain't for the likes of them, but take no notice of these ignorant muppets, Pete.

You do your own thing, and I wish you every success in your quest to learn the "Queen's English" if that is what you wish. In fact, as long as you speak English well it really doesn't matter what accent you use all said and done.

If spoken well, it's supremely beautiful. To hear it spoken badly can be purgatory.
Paracelsus   Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:20 pm GMT
"Can you ever imagine us all sounding like clones of Loyd Grossman?"

So, what are you saying, he speaks British with an American flavour, or American with a British flavour? I heard him in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dZ7UVaL6F4

And he sounds British to me.
Original Poster   Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:49 pm GMT
But if you are a learner, you are going to hear both varieties, British varieties, and American varieties. How is it possible to be consistent, when you keep hearing words pronounced in several different ways? You would have to make a conscious effort, and stick to one set of phonemes, one accent. This means that listening to a lot of spoken English won't help you with your pronunciation, because you can't just relax and pick up the accent, since you'll always have to make a conscious effort in order to avoid mixing everything up and speaking using random sounds.
That's the problem. Tom avoided this problem by listening only to American English. For other learners, that is not convenient or possible. Some learners might even need to travel frequently to both the US and the UK.