How to pronounce dark L?

Clari   Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:40 am GMT
I've got big problem about the pronunciation of dark L which is the L after the vowel, like the L in the words "pull", "fool", "real", "folk", etc.

After some web search, I found some say:
A "dark l" is actually an /l/ that is pronounced without using the tip of the tongue on the alveolar ridge. It is pronounced by moving the back of the tongue up toward the soft palate

and
For the final L, as in "will", "ball", "fail", the tip of the tongue is ever-so-slightly farther back than for the initial L and, much more important, the back of the tongue is withdrawn back so as to block off a good portion of the throat passages.

But in YouTube, some English teachers say we shall put the tip of the tongue on the alveolar ridge.

So I am totally confused. Where shall be the right position of the tongue tip when pronouncing the dark L? Can anyone kindly clarify this? Thanks in advance!
Drew   Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:43 am GMT
In all of those words, the "L" sound is created by my tongue being slightly stiff, right behind my front teeth. As for the back of the tongue, different for every word, probably depends on the vowel. I definitely can't make any of those sounds with the tip of my tongue on the ridge. That's too far back in my mouth.

Maybe just me.
Levee44   Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:56 am GMT
"right behind my front teeth"

That IS the alveolar ridge!

Clari, I think it doesn't matter at all whether the tip of your tongue touches the alveolar ridge or not when making the dark l. This varies among native speakers, too. What is important is that the back of the tongue should be raised towards the velum, which means that you should pronounce an "o" or "u" type of vowel simultaneously with the l. So etc. "fell" sounds almost like "feol" or even "feo".
kevin   Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:53 am GMT
dark L = produced in the back of your mouth (Portuguese and American L)
light L = frontal (Spanish L)

there is an intermediate L (produced in the central region): Brazilian and Italian L's are here, not dark and not light
Lechat   Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:25 pm GMT
Kevin, in what word do Brazilians pronounce this "intermediate L"? Because, in my dialect we pronunce "Lata" with light L and "mil" with no L at all, instead we just pronounce it as semi-vowel "w" similar to the sound in the english word "few", so the words "mau" and "mal" are homophones. I suppose this is the case in almost every Brazilian portuguese's accents but the southern one (sotaque sulista) where people do distiguish these two words pronouncig either a soft L or a dark L in final position.

Maybe you meant to the sound of "lh" in words like "milho", but it never happens in final position. Hence most brazilians will have a very hard time to distiguish pairs like boat/bolt, coat/colt, so/soul and so on.

Going back to Clari's question, as a nonnative speaker of english, I would advice foreigners to put the tip of their tongue on the alveolar ridge when producing the dark L because it will be easier to properly link words in phrases like "Brazil is".
Michelle O'Mamma   Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:53 pm GMT
Comparing Spanish L (in pLano Latino) and Brazilian L (in pLano Latino):
1. the Spanish one is very frontal
2. the Brazilian one is neutral (central), neither frontal (light) nor back (dark)
Lechat   Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:39 pm GMT
Maybe there is a difference and I am not aware of. I wonder if someone can provide me with an insight on that.
Uriel   Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:48 am GMT
I can make a dark L either way, whether I touch my tongue to the alveolar ridge or not. But then, I have a lot of practice. ;P

I have to touch the alveolar ridge to make a light L, however, and it takes some effort -- a slight tensing of my whole tongue. Whether this is how everyone does it or it's just me concentrating on making an unnatural sound (Americans don't use the light L much, if at all), I don't know.

However, it doesn't seem like anything to really worry too much about, since it doesn't matter much what kind of L you use in English -- the meaning of the word isn't going to change.
Clari   Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:30 am GMT
To pronounce R, one need to raise the back of the tongue. To pronounce the dark L, same shall be done.
so what is the difference between the R and the dark L?
for example
little vs litter
label vs labor
Lechat   Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:42 am GMT
Clari,

This video on youtube may be useful to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PJ2jZlVf-M
It has a sequence of several videos, you might have to watch all of them to find the one you really need, but take a look at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVSlTyulmqY

Indeed you can find lots of valuable videos about english pronunciation on youtube.
JeffinNYC   Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:02 am GMT
I definitely touch the alveolar ridge when I make the dark l, and at the same time the back of my tongue goes up to appoximately the same position as when I say the vowel in "for".
Uriel   Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:55 am GMT
<<so what is the difference between the R and the dark L? >>

For me the difference is not in what the tip of the tongue is doing, but in what the middle is doing -- my tongue is concave for an L, and convex for an R. The sounds produced are pretty different.