Few questions to Tom

I'd really appreciate if you could answer.

In one of your articles you distinguished three levels of pronunciation in English


"
Level 1: People often don't understand what you want to say. You use the wrong sounds in English words.
Level 2: People understand what you want to say, but it is unpleasant to listen to
Level 3: People understand you, and your English is pleasant to listen to."




But learning how to mimick english cononants and vowels basically makes one stuck at level 2.
So it is more to it than mimicking vowels and cononants. It is nessesary to produce sound/voice in a way particular for a certain langauge.


General American and British (RP) consonants and vowels are very similar but brits and amerians speak in entirely diffenent way (and I don't mean inonation here).

My reference here is "Acting with an accent" by David Alan Stern.
For example this sentence: The cat is in the house would be pronounced using the same vowels and consonants in English RP and General American dialect and yet it'd easy to tell which is which.


Stern say's that the point of maximum energy is sitated near the lips
in RP and in the mid/back of the oral cavity in GA. He also indicates that other features of voice are different (nasality etc.) in these two dialects.


Im getting close to my point and questions.

Let's follow your reasoning (that "there are three levels of English pronunciation")


Antimoon's co-founder Mr. Wojcik speech samples are a good example.

I'd say that Michal accent is at level 3 in the third (final) sample and level 2 in former samples. In my opinion his accent is native like in third part, off course not as good as yours but i'll stick to your reasoning and say that you both achieved level 3.


How does it differ from the previous samples of his (first and second)?
One of users (Ray) indicates that in the third (latest) sample r as a vowel sound is pronounced incorrectly.
Every "English" vowel and consonant is pronounced correctly (let's forget about that ɚ as in power).

I would say that Michal is speaking in a way he does in Polish in the first two samples and is getting close to Amercian in third.

One may butcher some english consonant or vowel and sound way more native than a person who mimick all sounds correctly because of these articulatory settings.

Once you submitted a sample of your own and you tried to speak with british dialect. Even though you mimicked all the sounds correctly, the conclusion was that you sound like American pretending to be British.


So here are my questions:

1. How different is the way you speak Polish and the way you speaks English (excluding the vowels and consonants)? Could you elaborate and explain? My first language is Polish as well so maybe it'd help.

2. How come Michal sounds way more native like in the third sample which way submitted (as far as I remember) in the same month as the former one's? Did you explain to him how to speak the way Americans do in that short a period of time? Does he speak "at level 3" more because of his own effort or more because of your help?


3. You said that considering your experience in teaching of pronunciation you think that achiving a native like accent like your of Michal's is available for much less people than you thought before. Is it possible to reach it without a gift (that you obviously have) and without any sort of help from a person who sounds native like (at level 3)?



Thankyou in advance.

Regarding the second question

"Did you explain to him how to speak.."

I know it sounds follish and it is more likely that he learnt it by repetition but I wanted to make sure that he didn't try to forcibly apply some features/changes in articulation (voice) as in speech therapy (off course again I am not taking about tongue positions --- cononants and vowels).

>> General American and British (RP) consonants and vowels are very similar but brits and amerians speak in entirely diffenent way (and I don't mean inonation here) <<

They're similar but not the same. If you measured the vowel formant frequencies in each dialect, they would be completely different. For example in the word "scoop", the /u/ vowel in (conservative) General American is very backed, but is very fronted in RP. There are several other differences in other vowels as well--that's why you can tell which is which.

I get your message (that on some words Britons and Americans would use different sounds) but that wasn't my point
In the sentence that I mention (The cat is in the house) is an example of using the same vowels and consonants in both RP and GA

Articulatory settings are entirely different and thats why you can tell whether one is a Briton or an American straightaway. Imitating vowels is not a hard thing to do yet. But vowels are not the main factor deciding whether one sounds native like or not.

My vowel frequencies are correct (opinion of a native American, checked it on Praat as well) and I sound way worse than some people who are off with their vowels.

I wanted to ask Tom after the differences in the way he speak Polish and English.

Check the second and the third sample of antimoon co-founder. His vowels are pretty much the same (in both samples) yet he sounds way more american in the third one.
http://antimoon.com/learners/michal_wojcik.htm

You can check out Tom's sample as well (the one he tries to speak with British dialect)

Off course I meant the first and the second sample of Mr Wojcik. Sorry. You can actually compare the first one with the other two.

Natascha McElhone
Hugh Laurie
Nicole Kidman
Rachel Griffiths

These actors can mimick american accent almost perfectly.

They are using entirely diffent voices while speaking with an american accent. For example Hugh's voice is way deeper.

If one'd hear their voices while they're speaking in dialects they mimick and their natural/native accents without seeing their faces one'd say they are not the same people.

(actors/actresses)

I listened to Michal's three samples. He sounds best in the first and third samples. Since this sample has been here for awhile, he may have improved recently. Actually he sounds very good-only some very slight coloring from Polish. Some people might not mind hearing that. It's not a heavy acent at all. I wouldn't send him to an accent reduction coach.
Some people will probably ask him about his accent.
His accent is fine for most jobs in the US.

"My vowel frequencies are correct (opinion of a native American, checked it on Praat as well) and I sound way worse than some people who are off with their vowels. "


True, you can pronounce American vowels; but this doesn't entail that you know how syllabification of english. There is a certain meter to the spoken english. American stress and intonation with a few foreign vowels/consonants is a way better than some L2 stress, intonation and syllable structure with American sounds.

American stress and intonation with a few foreign vowels/consonants is a way better than some L2 stress, intonation and syllable structure with American sounds.


I am not talking about stress and intonation.

Words stress is an easy thing
Intonation on some sentences may be tricky indeed. But if American forcibly speaks with a flat intonation (like a robot) he still sounds like American.


One may practice by repeating simultaneously with a native speaker or from an audiobook and then send it as a sample. It's an easy way of mimicking intonation on some practiced text.


Perfect intonation in the sent sample/in a practiced text.


Intonation, stress, consonants and vowels maybe are the key to being understood, definately ain't the to sound native like.

1. How different is the way you speak Polish and the way you speaks English (excluding the vowels and consonants)? Could you elaborate and explain? My first language is Polish as well so maybe it'd help.

This is not something I've given much thought to. If you're looking for advice on how to work on your articulation to sound more American, I'm afraid you'll have to look elsewhere.

2. How come Michal sounds way more native like in the third sample which way submitted (as far as I remember) in the same month as the former one's?

I think it's because he speaks faster. It's also possible that it took him some time to warm up (the third sample was recorded last).


3. You said that considering your experience in teaching of pronunciation you think that achiving a native like accent like your of Michal's is available for much less people than you thought before. Is it possible to reach it without a gift (that you obviously have) and without any sort of help from a person who sounds native like (at level 3)?

You are essentially asking:
Suppose every English learner took pronunciation very seriously (the way Tom and Michal did). What percentage would end up at a native level ("Level 4"), how many would end up at Level 3 and 2?

Obviously I am not qualified to answer this question (I'm not sure anyone is). I sure meet a lot of people with poor pronunciation -- is it because they are not talented? or because they didn't put in the hours? How can I tell? (To make things worse, one causes the other: if you suck at pronunciation, you will lose your motivation and abandon the project.)

I would LIKE to think anyone who does what I did can reach Level 3 (clear, pleasant to listen to), but in the end what do I know? There are plenty of Antimoon users with brilliant written English who are so unhappy with their pronunciation that they're afraid to send me a demo recording. Arnold Schwarzenegger must have spent a fortune on accent reduction, yet he won't be narrating any audiobooks anytime soon.

I know one thing for sure: If I didn't have something of a gift for imitating speech, my recordings would sound much less native-like. If I had noticed that every English sound is a major challenge for me, I would have simply settled for less (Level 3, maybe even lower). What would be the point of fighting an uphill battle (with no guarantees as to the result) just to become native-like? What sort of a goal is that? There are hundreds of millions of Americans who will always be more native-like than you, you know. I would have rather focused on my other talents.