High English

Leasnam   Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:04 pm GMT
I would opt for modelling new words from Dutch or Scandinavian than from German. German words do not assimilate well into English, outside of being calqued (like 'guestfriendship'/'guestfriendliness' for "Gastfreundschaft", 'homesickness' for "Heimweh", asf) because of the 2nd Shift. They sound too otherlandish.

Dutch words however do much better ('belive' for "experience", 'bedide' for "explain", 'overweigh' for "consider", asf). They fit right in. No one would even know they were there.
Vinlander   Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:13 pm GMT
I think i would have to agree with using other germanic words as well.

I think it wouldn't take long to come up with a list of germanic words to replace latin ones. Similiar to anglish.

I starting to feel confused though whether or not Anglish or High English//folkenglish or some other model would be best. There's alot of options with vocab. The only real goal would be to make our languages closer to a linguistic cousins. or a our own past anyone elses ideas?
BrE2   Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:00 pm GMT
<The only real goal would be to make our languages closer to a linguistic cousins. or a our own past >

That would be Latin, for a good part of your DNA. Or maybe an African or Middle Eastern language.
Vinlander   Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:05 pm GMT
You know what i meant.
desmond   Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:34 am GMT
>>Whilst English, Dutch, Afrikaans, Norwegian, Danish and Swedish are low in "germanicness" <<

In this regard, yes. HEY, you learned something new, dumbass!
--   Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:02 pm GMT
@ Vinlander Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:18 pm GMT:

<<I'm aware of conlangs, however they usually rely on madeup or archaic words.>>

Ok, but if you want to replace Latin words with germanic ones, you also have to either use archaic words, make up some by yourself or borrow them form other Germanic languages. For phonetic reasons, they will get distorted a little if used in an other language. There are borrowings in conlangs, too. If you're aware of conlangs, you surely know that there are already Germanic based conlangs out there.

<<I would prefer to use words already in use in other germanic tonuges. I'm not against latin words some would still have to used. But when there are german words that can do the job quite well why not? I mean why not use fragen versus question to me it seems very natural.
Or entdecken instead of discovery.>>

Do you really mean ''German words'', or rather ''germanic words''? It's not just the use of other words, but also their correct use. How would you conjugate ''entdecken'' in your intended conlang? As a German native speaker, it would sound rather ridiculous if you would not decline it and just use the basic form or just add an -s in 3 person singular. Where would you add that -s? Note, that ''entdecken'' is prefix ent-, stem -deck- and suffix -en and there are other words in German like abdecken, aufdecken, bedecken, verdecken, zudecken, each with several conjugated and participal forms. How would you handle that in your proposed language? Apart form that exemples, how would you cope with possible umlaut in certain German word forms. Would you adopt ''ähnlich'' for ''similar''?
Would you adopt ''üben'' for ''practice''? You most likely are not able to pronunce it correctly.
--   Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:06 pm GMT
Just seen it: <<Or entdecken instead of discovery.>>

The word ''entdecken'' is not equal to ''discovery''. The former is a verb, the latter a noun. So ''entdecken'' for ''to discover'' or ''Entdeckung'' for ''discovery''.
--   Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:52 pm GMT
@ Vinlander Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:18 pm GMT:

<<Furthermore i'm just shooting out ideas.>>

You are not the first one, and will not be the last, alas.

<<I do see a need for some sort of High//pure//academic//heritage// version of english.>>

I really don't see that need! ''High'' here means just ''standard'', ''pure'' sounds a bit outdated (note, this is euphemistic, it actually is very right-winged), ''academic'' always means that you use Latinate or Greek words in many academic subjects. In computer technology, you almost always use English terms, some of them based on Latin or Greek. What's wrong with using special terms for academic/special purposes in contrast to English ones in everyday life? (Think at the English use of pig and porc etc.) If you borrow German words, then it's not really ''heritage''.

<<Just look at the EU everyone has to spend years learning english, when at some point UK out of fairness are gonna have to learn other languages. >>

Out of fairness, it is not just the UK, but all the English speaking world. I remember a discussion here at Antimoon, where an American linguistics student doesn't show interest in learning other languages, because for him, it is a waste time, but his studies deal with the physical mechanisms of language learning, if I've got him correctly.

<<It would also be nice if a say a German person and English person could have more of a middle tongue between them.>>

Dutch?

As we all learn English, we don't need the extra efford of learning a ''middle tongue''. If you want to be fair, learn German, French, etc.,
but don't waste your and our time in learning a pointless and improperly made IAL, there are already too many around, most of them with little amounts of speakers. If you followed some discussion here in Antimoon, I think it is agreed that leaning similar languages at the same period of time is not good. As they are similar, you will get confused. Learn something totally different instead.

<<Cases would be useful not because it's germanic, but because its a common trait in Russian, hindi and even latin. Plus Angloes lack a language we can learn easily say when compared to Germans, or spainards.>>

Cases are a ''common trait'' in many languages. But this doesn't mean that they are useful in the first place. They are useful in that languages. There are many languages without them. Try to learn Turkish, there are six cases and the language is quite different form IE languages. Do you think learning an other language is easy if they are related to your mother tongue?

<<As Far a this being a right wing idea, most right wingers see little value in language ...>>

To go for language ''pureness'' is a very right wing idea. Compare that with the notion of racial pureness.

<<... unless it makes them money.>>

That's why they performed the ''Rechtschreibreform''. The reformers are not necessarily ''right-wing'', but earned much money.

<<Furthermore the reason liberals arn't for it because liberals are romantics.>>

Liberals in Germany aren't that romantic, but just want to make money.

<<I guess old english would work for alot of these ideas, but dead languages are hard to resurrect it's much easier to piggyback off modern ones like german.>>

Old English is good to start with if you want to make a conlang as you intend. Of course, you had to invent terms for modern concepts. But very few will try to learn it because it's complex declensional system, even if you would simplify it a little. It's even harder to establish a community using a conlang. But there are counterexemples for both cases: Modern Hebrew and Esperanto, but the latter is heavily based on existing vocabulary, using an agglutinative morphology like Turkish or Hungarian.
But again, many people don't like Esperanto, especially some aspects of phonology and vocabulary. There is a thread on that topic here in Antimoon.

Vinlander, I recommend you to read a lot about conlanging, google for it or use Wikipedia. Join one of the conlanging fora.
Vinlander   Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:51 am GMT
Lets keep politics out of this I have no connection to European politics and I can't stand partisan politics, nor do I have any interest in Racial purity or any of that garbage.

As far as my comment on EU and UK, it wouldn't apply to any other country, as no other anglo country is in a Union of over 40 countries which are set on equality and linguistic diversity. Canada has French, the USA has no official language if you get my point.

Most of your points about cases and improper words i'm aware of. As I said there are several different models to choose from. The only real goal is bringing english closer to it's linguitic cousins. OE would be useful however things like 7 noun cases would simply pull it farther away.

As far as the name if you want it could be called English Revised to increase philological relations to its closest genetic relatives (happy?) I simply picked High English to stay on the Theme of Old Middle and Modern English. You can call it NordSeaSaxon for all I care.

I'm aware of what it takes to learn a full language. I'm also aware that stepping stone languages such as conlangs are useful. However I wouldn't assume the Revised or modified form of English is a conlang. As this is a forum about the English language it seemed fitting to post it here. Of course any language that has any planning could be called a Conlang. Just look at german spelling reforms it's not natural it's very much planned. Just the same as you wouldn't call Nynorsk or Bokmal in the same group as esperanto, elvish, klingon, or interlingua.

My intention would be to create a language based on real world languages, of course it would be partly artificial but it would be meant to correspond to real languages.
--   Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:55 pm GMT
<<I'm aware of what it takes to learn a full language. I'm also aware that stepping stone languages such as conlangs are useful. However I wouldn't assume the Revised or modified form of English is a conlang. As this is a forum about the English language it seemed fitting to post it here.>>

In fact it would be a cipher of English.

<<Of course any language that has any planning could be called a Conlang.>>

Not really, I think. There are language with controlled vocabulary, so there is a plan behind it to not grow the vocabulary in random directions. But these are not conlangs.

<<Just look at german spelling reforms it's not natural it's very much planned.>>

Yes, it's not natural. The only thing they planned is the chaos. In fact, they planned to reduce capitalisation and they ended up with much more of it. They planned that it will become easier but it ended up much more difficult. But what you are doing is not a reform, you try to replace everyday words with words form sister languages, most likely with distorted orthography and cut off endings. This is even more violence you do to the language and the people who want to learn it. Believe me, their amount will be very small.


Just the same as you wouldn't call Nynorsk or Bokmal in the same group as esperanto, elvish, klingon, or interlingua.

My intention would be to create a language based on real world languages, of course it would be partly artificial but it would be meant to correspond to real languages.
--   Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:57 pm GMT
Ha, forgot to delete the last two paragraphs.
Vinlander`   Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:41 am GMT
I'm not gonna spend the day arguing about the semantics of conlangs. But since its my idea I'd argue it's not a language since there is no clear criteria that defer dialects from languages. It's a style of English. If you wanna call it a constyle or condialect go right ahead. Either way it wouldn't be consider a whole new language but a style, form, or standard of English. Just like how the english you hear on television has some level of design to it, or even the English you hear in movies.


Anyhow if anyone still has any interest or ideas please post. If you wanna argue or keep sidetracking the thread, start your own.