Which Country's Nobility has the Coolest Surnames?

F. Voss de Fossenfeldt   Wed May 05, 2010 5:17 pm GMT
Which country has the coolest noble names? Anyone who agrees that the:
- Spanish (e.g. de Villanova), German (e.g. von Neudorf) and French (e.g. de Neuville) ones are too boringly obvious, although the French ones do well in Anglo-Norman disguise (e.g. Neville)?
- That the British, Italian and Russian aristocracies had shockingly common and nondescript names in many instances, not at all distinguishable from commoners?
- That perhaps the best noble surnames are the ornamental surnames of the Scandinavian nobility derived from canting arms? E.g. Pistolkors of Romanov fame?

Are there anybody else who thinks the mad Russian Civil War figure Baron Roman von Ungern-Sternberg showed good taste when he quite incorrectly adopted the form Baron Roman Ungern von Sternberg? Anybody else who thinks double-barrelled noble names sound too bourgeois, modern and too little feudal: E.g. that Count Danneskiold of Samsøe sounds better than Count Danneskiold-Samsøe?

Pistohlkors, as an example of ornamental Scandinavian noble surnames linked with canting arms:
Arms: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/PistohlkorsWappen.jpg
Which came first, the name or the arms?
Probably at the same time - in 1645, when Queen Kristina of Sweden ennobled the Lieutenant Jöran Olufsson of the Karelian Cavalry. He, like so many Scandinavians ennobled by letters patent, obviously emulated the "armorially derived surname" of the ancient Scandinavian noble families like Vasa, Oxenstierna, Rosenkrantz, Gyldenstierna, Gyldenløve, Gedde, Banér, Bielke, Sparre, Stenbock, Natt och Dag, Leijonhuvud etc. But simultaneously he needed canting arms to derive that surname from!

In Scandinavia (particularly Norway and Denmark) where so many people have farm names as surname, territorial surnames (or titles) are not much used by the nobility, in stark contrast to both Britain, but especially France and Germany. But unlike in Russia (and Britain), any surname can't be seen as noble, they are usually either foreign (mostly German, e.g. Wedell, Von Essen) or "ornamental surnames" derived or pseudo-derived from arms, like Pistolkors. Often with the connection to heraldry being explicitly mentioned, as in Danneskiold, Danish Shield, whose arms are a variation on the arms of Denmark.
Most non-Scandinavians would probably associate these types of surnames with Jewishness, e.g. Rothschild (Red Shield) and Goldenblatt (Golden Leaf).
W. Babergh Cobbold   Wed May 05, 2010 11:32 pm GMT
What thy fuckers is 'canting arms' and why hast thou spelt 'Pistolkors' then 'Pistohlkors' Why dost thee thinketh 'Neville' is Anglo-Norman?...Art 'Neuville' names in Germany A-N too!

From the mouth of Wiki:

"Mountbatten is the family name adopted by two branches of the Battenberg family due to rising anti-German sentiment among the British public during World War I. On 14 July 1917, Prince Louis of Battenberg ("Prince Louis I") assumed the surname Mountbatten (having rejected an alternative translation, "Battenhill") for himself and his descendants, and was created Marquess of Milford Haven.[2] The name is an Anglicisation of the German Battenberg, a small town in Hesse."

Note: contrary to the above bullshiting, a true Anglicisation of the name 'Battenburg' should of been 'Battenhill' or 'Battenburgh' or Battenborough (think Attenborough) certainly not 'Mountbatten'

"Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink's name derives from the 17th century, when two farming families in the Enschede area of the Netherlands intermarried. Both the Vennegoor and Hesselink names carried equal social weight, and so — rather than choose between them — they chose to use both. "Of" in Dutch translates to "or" in English, which would mean that a strict translation of his name would read 'Jan Vennegoor or Hesselink'.[7] This could be considered as having the same effect as the double-barrelling of English surnames."

Note: for a slight Anglicisation of Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink - how about Jan Vennego(or) Hesselink!
rep   Thu May 06, 2010 6:57 am GMT
<<Note: contrary to the above bullshiting, a true Anglicisation of the name 'Battenburg' should of been 'Battenhill' or 'Battenburgh' or Battenborough (think Attenborough) certainly not 'Mountbatten'>>
Old form of placename Battenberg is Bettenberge.German betten -English to lay down (compare G. Bett-E. bed)
G.Battenberg-E. Bedbergh( former placename in Cumbria),Bedbarrow (placename in Worcestershire).
rep   Thu May 06, 2010 9:52 am GMT
Placenames with -bergh or bergh- are frequent in Norfolk and Suffolk. Old English word "beorg" evolved to English word "barrow" what means "hill".Form "bergh" survived only in placenames.
Manyhyll   Thu May 06, 2010 11:34 am GMT
What exactly are the differences between: Burgh, Borough, Bury, Brough, Boro, Barrow, Bergh, Burrow: which ones mean 'hill' and which mean fort etc?

Burf, Burth, Berth, Bur, Berry, Bere, Beer, Barrough: arn't these also rarer variants of the aboven?
PARISIEN   Thu May 06, 2010 12:16 pm GMT
French and German territorial titles are the coolest, period.

Especially when there's a "von und zu" involved
opinion   Thu May 06, 2010 1:17 pm GMT
Perhaps pure Old English "bergh" seems for British nobility too much Germanic and they adopted Norman French "mount"?
Franco   Thu May 06, 2010 1:27 pm GMT
Penetra   Thu May 06, 2010 1:56 pm GMT
The UK.
marty   Thu May 06, 2010 4:07 pm GMT
vannegoor of hesselink is a pretty badass name

i wonder which countries had the coolest coat of arms or family crests
F. Voss de Fossenfeldt   Thu May 06, 2010 4:58 pm GMT
W. Babergh Cobbold:
Canting (i.e. singing) arms are heraldic bearings that represent the bearer's name in a visual pun or rebus. E.g. the castle and lion of Castilla y León.

Regarding Neville: Why would Anglo-Normans name themselves after German villages?

Pistolkohrs is a more Germanesque spelling of Swedish Pistolkors (meaning pistol cross - hence the canting arms). The family became part of the Baltic-German nobility when the Swedish Baltic provinces became Russian.

Vennegoor of Hesselink is an interesting name, but not noble.

Regarding Mountbatten:
First of all it's funny that Anglophones often misspell it as BattenbUrg because in their ears there is no difference!

It's interesting that Mountbatten sounds more aristocratic than Battenborough. In Scandinavia there is the same tendency to "foreign snobbery", usually German or faux German names. E.g. From Von Wedell af Wedellsborg to such hilarities as Von Jenssen.
F. Voss de Fossenfeldt   Thu May 06, 2010 5:36 pm GMT
Bourgeois-born royal favourite Christoffer Gabel's arms are funny: They feature two forks (German: Gabel) stuck in a crown!) See http://www.roskildehistorie.dk/stamtavler/adel/Gabel/Gabel.htm
encore   Thu May 06, 2010 5:47 pm GMT
<<It's interesting that Mountbatten sounds more aristocratic than Battenborough.>> It's only your opinion. Mountbatten sounds dummy. Battenborough sounds like Marlborough,real noble name.
Copdock   Thu May 06, 2010 6:06 pm GMT
Sounds more like Sleswick, but I wonder if Nazi Anglophile von Ribbenthrop was a Junker from Danzig and other former German lands annexed by Polak savages.



<<Perhaps pure Old English "bergh" seems for British nobility too much Germanic and they adopted Norman French "mount"? >>

The war time causualty: 'Battenberg' was deemed too German rather than Germanic, whilst the English translation giving the English Germanic names: 'Battenhill' or something like 'Battenborough' or 'Battenburgh' sounded to common and runofthemill.

Not the first time the British elite have given themselves fake French/Latin names. Even if a rare Germanic English name is suggested, it would be considered too undistinguished and too alike to the man on the street. 'Windsor' is basically a successful bit of post war PR so the Mountbattens (Battenbergs) could pretend to be even more down with British folk.

Anyway, the nameshifting of Battenberggate sheds light on how a Saxon chief might end up with a fancy Norman name, and before them, how the Normans themselves ended up Frenchifing their Scandinavian names.
encore   Thu May 06, 2010 6:23 pm GMT
If prince's true surname for example was not Battenberg,but Overwater,Herford,Buddenbrook,Cuxhaven,Moorfleet (placenames in North Germany)?