Argentine speaking French (from Marseille)

joolsey   Thu May 06, 2010 7:04 pm GMT
Here is an interview with Argentine footballer Gabriel Heinze of Olympique Marseille.

In terms of his French accent; how does it appear to native speakers? Does he sound like an old southern peasant from the 1950s or something?

Obviously, the French interviewers can understand what he says; in my modest opinion, his pronunciation is not bad for a Spanish-speaker (even though he cannot reproduce all the subtleties of French vowel sounds he at least aims for an approximate sound)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAivY-TEK7Y

P.S. When did the alveolar 'r' (both thrilled and tapped) die out in French (as in the way Henize pronounces 'contre' as kontɾɘ' or 'rapide' with a thrill)or is it still pronounced in some rural areas?
PARISIEN   Thu May 06, 2010 8:49 pm GMT
Sounds like some standard Spanish/Italian accent, but real thick! (some sentences are fully impossible to understand).

<< When did the alveolar 'r' (both thrilled and tapped) die out in French (as in the way Henize pronounces 'contre' as kontɾɘ' or 'rapide' with a thrill)or is it still pronounced in some rural areas? >>

-- It is generally believed that rolled 'r' began to disappear in urban areas in the late 18th century, but they were still widespread on the country still in the mid-20th century. From then on they wore a stigma of stereotype farmer speech, and are now on the verge of extinction.

A similar evolution (with 10 to 15 years delay) is taking place in Québec, and also in Germany.
Unroll the r   Fri May 07, 2010 9:11 am GMT
The people of Sweden and Netherlands are also now adopting the non-rolled r.
Þjóðólfr of Hvinir   Sat May 08, 2010 1:05 am GMT
>>It is generally believed that rolled 'r' began to disappear in urban areas in the late 18th century, but they were still widespread on the country still in the mid-20th century.>>
So the story with a monarch, Louis XIV XV or XVI, with a speech impediment starting the trend is just an urban myth? Who was the first French Head of State to speak with a uvular r? The bourgeois king Louis-Philippe? Napoleon III? Or a president?
joolsey   Sat May 08, 2010 5:50 pm GMT
Or could it be due to the Germanic influence in northern Oil languages?
PARISIEN   Sat May 08, 2010 6:09 pm GMT
<< Or could it be due to the Germanic influence in northern Oil languages? >>

-- Non. Les 'R' uvulaires sont apparus indépendamment (et +/- simultanément) depuis 3 centres de diffusion en France, Allemagne et au Danemark, et gagnent continuellement du terrain depuis 2 siècles.

Peut-être dans le futur vont-ils attaquer Italie, Espagne et pays slaves. Difficile à imaginer, mais non exclu !
Franco   Sat May 08, 2010 6:11 pm GMT
In Spain some people with speech impediment don't roll their R's but pronounce it like the French. This leads me to think that pronouncing rolled R's is more phonologically demmanding.
PARISIEN   Sat May 08, 2010 8:05 pm GMT
En Italie (probablement en Espagne aussi) la majorité des consultations d'orthophonie concernent l'incapacité à prononcer les "R" locaux.

En France on n'a pas ce problème...

Inversement, il n'y a que 5% de dyslexiques en Italie et Espagne, mais 20% dans les pays franco- et anglophones.

On ne peut pas tout avoir.
Franco   Sat May 08, 2010 8:57 pm GMT
R in Spanish is tricky, I remember having problems when I was a child with alveolar flap in clusters like DR and TR. I tended to pronounced it always rolled (cuatrro instead of cuatro for example).
Þjóðólfr of Hvinir   Sat May 08, 2010 9:49 pm GMT
PARISIEN:
>>Non. Les 'R' uvulaires sont apparus indépendamment (et +/- simultanément) depuis 3 centres de diffusion en France, Allemagne et au Danemark, et gagnent continuellement du terrain depuis 2 siècles.<<

Very interesting theory. Could you elaborate?

What about the theory about uvular r existing as a variety along with alveolar r in Occitan (just as in Portuguese today?) and then for some reason being adopted by Oïl-speakers as a realization of all /r/s?
Eric the Red   Sat May 08, 2010 10:01 pm GMT
Hmm... I find it hard to believe that rolled r's of Spanish for example are harder to pronounce than the French kind, which is a pretty unique sound to me. The rolled ones are more common and found in all the other Romance languages, as well as others.
Franco   Sat May 08, 2010 10:11 pm GMT
The rolled ones are more common and found in all the other Romance languages, as well as others.


Not really, uvular R is not that unique at all. It is present in French and in Portuguese. It also exists in many other non Romance European languages : German, Swedish, Dutch ,etc.
PARISIEN   Sat May 08, 2010 11:15 pm GMT
Certaines langues distinguent entre différentes sortes de "r" mais dans la presque-totalité des langues d'Europe, il n'y a pas d'opposition phonémique entre les "r" uvulaires, alvéolaires, ou anglais.

D'où une instabilité intrinsèque de ce phonème. Il a virtuellement disparu des prononciations anglaises non-rhotiques.


<< It (uvular R) also exists in many other non Romance European languages : German, Swedish, Dutch ,etc. >>

- - Le "r" est théoriquement apical en suédois standard, mais la prononciation uvulaire progresse très vite.


<< What about the theory about uvular r existing as a variety along with alveolar r in Occitan? >>

- - J'ai lu quelque part qu'en effet, le "r" uvulaire était apparu spontanément en Provence et s'était répandu de façon autonome dans tout le Sud, indépendamment de l'influence du Nord. Mais je ne peux confirmer.
Matematik   Sun May 09, 2010 12:04 am GMT
<<. It also exists in many other non Romance European languages : German, Swedish, Dutch ,etc. >>

Swedish and Dutch are rolled Rs.
yy   Sun May 09, 2010 12:11 am GMT
<<Swedish and Dutch are rolled Rs. >>

Clearly you've never been to Holland or Sweden.