Do Americans ever NOT use the subjunctive?

Subjunctivise   Mon May 24, 2010 10:26 pm GMT
It's been well discussed on here, that American English retains the subjunctive, or at least what's left of it, where British English doesn't, or at least uses it inconsistently. But would you ever hear an American failing to use it? For example, would you ever hear the following escaping an AmE speaker's lips?

'I'm going to suggest he speaks to her'

'I demanded he told me the truth'

'I ask that you don't do that'

This could all be heard in BrE, but you might also hear versions with the subjunctive i.e.:

'I'm going to suggest he speak to her'

'I demanded he tell me the truth'

'I ask that you not do that'.

However, I would only ever really expect the latter from the Americans, but would they ever say the former?

Cheers!
united statesian   Mon May 24, 2010 11:15 pm GMT
<<'I ask that you don't do that' >>

sounds normal to me.
american   Tue May 25, 2010 7:16 pm GMT
I would probably never say those first phrases. They sound wrong to me. We should be proud that we have kept what is left of the subjunctive in our english.
Franco   Tue May 25, 2010 7:18 pm GMT
Yes because subjunctive tense makes languages more sophisticated.
american   Tue May 25, 2010 7:28 pm GMT
I am surprised at this observation. I am not around enough english people to know if this is true or not. I wonder if it makes a difference regionally in the US whether or not you use the subjunctive. The south would be my guess for americans who don't use it.
General Lee   Tue May 25, 2010 7:32 pm GMT
Nah Boy, (sniff) we use it. 'Use it awll the tahhhm.
subjunctivitis   Tue May 25, 2010 11:23 pm GMT
<<Yes because subjunctive tense makes languages more sophisticated. >>

It's questionable that "be" in a sentence like

"We insist that all attendees be in their seats before the start of the session."

is really the subjunctive anymore. At one time this would have been called the subjunctive, of course. But, in our attempts to rid modern English of unnecessarily complex grammar (i.e dumb it down), a construction like this is better analyzed as an "uninflected form", "simple form", "occult infinitive", etc., rather than as that horrid, old-fashioned subjuntctive. The use of the uninflected "be" can be regarded as a simplification in modern English, not a complication.

By the same token, "were" (what used to be the old past subjunctive) in the snippet "If I were ..." can be analyzed as the "irreal past", so the subjunctive has been completely banished from modern English.

Additionally,
Subjunctivise   Wed May 26, 2010 10:42 am GMT
>>"We insist that all attendees be in their seats before the start of the session." <<

It is still the subjunctive, isn't it? It is just that we no longer have a separate inflection to express it. But if it wasn't (sorry WEREN'T hehe) the subjunctive, then it would read

'We insist that all attendees ARE in their seats before the start of the session' (which you would sometimes hear in BrE).
subjunctivitis   Wed May 26, 2010 4:14 pm GMT
<<It is still the subjunctive, isn't it?>>

But you don't have to call it the "subjunctive", which brings to mind foreign languages, with all their complexity.

Calling it an "uninflected form" sounds a whole lot simpler.
Subjunctivise   Wed May 26, 2010 5:15 pm GMT
Yes, but just saying 'uninflected form' doesn't specify why the uninflected form is being used in such sentences.
Leasnam   Wed May 26, 2010 7:10 pm GMT
<<It is still the subjunctive, isn't it?>>

Yes. Because it derives directly from earlier subjunctive forms in English. This is the reason why we still say it the way we do.

English will always have a subjunctive mood, regardless of whether we alter the form of the verb or not. If I say "If I feel like it." <-- the statement was subjunctive, even if the sentence looks selfsame to "I feel like it." (indicative)
Leasnam   Wed May 26, 2010 7:13 pm GMT
<<But you don't have to call it the "subjunctive", which brings to mind foreign languages, with all their complexity. >>

That may be so, but 'subjunctive' does not mean "of a form found in foreign languages, complex". It means: depending upon a condition, "conditional".

Perhaps your association is off.
subjunctivitis   Wed May 26, 2010 9:35 pm GMT
<<Yes, but just saying 'uninflected form' doesn't specify why the uninflected form is being used in such sentences. >>

"Uninflected form" is not as scary as "subjunctive".
Baldewin   Thu May 27, 2010 5:33 pm GMT
People fear subjunctive case too much, it's not that hard. Maybe it is in Spanish when you tread outside the present tense, or when you're speaking French and desperately struggle to keep the past subjunctive alive.
Franco   Thu May 27, 2010 5:36 pm GMT
Most difficult subjunctive is that of Portuguese, it has present, past and future subjunctive. Spanish also has future subjunctive, but it's not used in everyday speech.