center and sinner

Guest   Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:07 am GMT
Are these two words pronounced the same way or is there a difference?
Kirk   Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:47 am GMT
If you're completely "pin-pen" merged and you have /nt/ --> [n] in intervocalic postion and after a stressed syllable, then yes.

I am not "pin-pen" merged so they're different for me:

"center" ["sEn@`]
"sinner" ["sIn@`]
Uriel   Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:38 am GMT
They have different vowels for me, and are readily distinguishable even without the T-sound, which I generally drop.
Lazar   Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:26 pm GMT
They're different for me:

center - ["sEnt@`] or in rapid speech ["sEn@`]
sinner - ["sIn@`]

Kirk, for you, is the /nt/-->[n] change as uniform as, say, the /t/-->[4] change in the same phonological contexts? Because I've found that I'm quite variable, with it being allowable in some situations but not in others. To give a little summary, for me:

Usually/always /nt/-->[nt]:
- twenty
- plenty (when used in a quantitative sense, like "plenty of", or "there's plenty", but *not* when used as an abstract noun, as in "land of plenty")
- In certain verbal forms, when followed by a vowel: wanted, want, went, "-sn't" words, and "-n't" words
- "Amount", when followed by a vowel (as in, "amount of")
- Word-finally in an unstressed syllable, when followed by a vowel: important, significant (as in, "the most important/significant of the...")
- Certain (longish) lexical items: representative, identity, gentleman

Sometimes /nt/-->[nt]:
- "center", in rapid speech
- "county", as in "xxx County Jail"
- "sent", when followed by a vowel
- "aunt", when followed by a vowel (I would always use [nt] in the sentence "My aunt ate it", but I might reduce /nt/-->[n] in a sentence like "My aunt is coming over")

Never /nt/-->[nt]:
- Most disyllabic lexical items: winter, cantor, banter, saunter, auntie
- Generally I never have /ntl=/-->[nl=]; I would always use [nt] in: gentle, dental, fundamental, etc.
- Past tense/participial forms like "talented", "scented", "granted" generally don't have /nt/-->[n]
SpaceFlight   Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:37 pm GMT
Never /nt/-->[nt]

I assume you mean = Never /nt/-->[n]
Lazar   Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:14 pm GMT
<<I assume you mean = Never /nt/-->[n]>>

Yeah, that's what I meant. *oops* Thanks for pointing that out. ;-)
br   Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:21 pm GMT
Do you pronounce ''hull'' and ''hole'' the same way. I'm from California and I pronounce them the same way, as /hol/. The interesting thing is that it's not a complete merger of /ol/ and /Vl/, as ''color'' /kVl@`/ still has /Vl/ for me while ''duller'' /dol@`/ does not .
Lazar   Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:51 pm GMT
<<Do you pronounce ''hull'' and ''hole'' the same way.>>

No, I pronounce those words differently. In my dialect there's no rounding of /V/ before /l/, so "hull" and "culture" are [hVl] and [kVltS@`] for me. I've never perceived words like "hull" and "butter" as having perceptibly different vowels.

Just on a side note, though, when /oU/ is followed by /l/ in the same syllable, for me, it tends to have a backed and more monophthongal allophone [o] or [o@]. The words "color" and "duller" rhyme for me ([kVl@`], [dVl@`]), but the phenomenon in your speech where they don't rhyme seems to parallel a phenomenon in my speech where pairs like "holy, slowly" and "mealy, freely" don't rhyme:

holy - ["ho@l.i]
slowly - ["sloU.li]

mealy - ["mi@l.i]
freely - ["fri.li]
Adam   Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:00 pm GMT
The big difference is that "centre" has the sound of the letter T in the middle.
Aussie   Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:22 pm GMT
<<"hull" and "culture" are [hVl] and [kVltS@`] for me.>>

That's interesting. For me, ''hull'' is /hVl/, but ''culture'' is /kOltS@/.

Likewise, here are the following words for me:

golf - /gOlf/
gulf - /gOlf/
gold - /gOld/
vault - /vOlt/
cult - /kOlt/
bald - /bOld/
bold - /bOld/
bulb - /bOlb/
Aussie   Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:28 pm GMT
<</hVl/>>

Actually, it's /h6l/ for me, being from Australia.
Uriel   Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:47 pm GMT
Hull and hole are different for me, too.
Kirk   Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:23 pm GMT
<<Do you pronounce ''hull'' and ''hole'' the same way. I'm from California and I pronounce them the same way, as /hol/. The interesting thing is that it's not a complete merger of /ol/ and /Vl/, as ''color'' /kVl@`/ still has /Vl/ for me while ''duller'' /dol@`/ does not .>>

I normally pronounce "hull" and "hole" the same. I'm also from California. Like you, I have [V] in "color" and [o] in "duller." I believe this has to do with morphophonemics. "Color" is one morpheme while "duller" isn't, being "dull" + "er." Also, my [5] is darker in "dull" while not as much in "color," and I think it's the [5] that pulls the vowel back and rounds it, so it's not surprising "duller" has [o] for me, while "color" has [V]. So, compare these pronunciations:

"color" /kVl@r\/ --> ["k_hVl@`]
"culler" /kVl/ + /@r\/ --> ["k_ho5@`]

Still, if I think of other words there may be other ones where we're dealing with the same-morpheme may still have /Vl/ --> [o5]. Based on my speech that's why I call myself transitionally "hull-hole" merged because it may not apply to all cases while it does to many.

I am definitely not "golf-gulf" merged. The words that were mentioned above are as follows for me:

golf - [gA5f]
gulf - [go5f]
gold - [go5d]
vault - [vA5t]
cult - [k_ho5t]
bald - [bA5d]
bold - [bo5d]
bulb - [bo5b]

<<Kirk, for you, is the /nt/-->[n] change as uniform as, say, the /t/-->[4] change in the same phonological contexts? Because I've found that I'm quite variable, with it being allowable in some situations but not in others.>>

It seems to be far more regular a rule for me than it is for you. For me it's almost as consistent as /t/ --> [4].

<<To give a little summary, for me:

Usually/always /nt/-->[n]:
- twenty
- plenty (when used in a quantitative sense, like "plenty of", or "there's plenty", but *not* when used as an abstract noun, as in "land of plenty")
- In certain verbal forms, when followed by a vowel: wanted, want, went, "-sn't" words, and "-n't" words
- "Amount", when followed by a vowel (as in, "amount of")
- Word-finally in an unstressed syllable, when followed by a vowel: important, significant (as in, "the most important/significant of the...")
- Certain (longish) lexical items: representative, identity, gentleman>>

Yes those all usually have /nt/ --> [n] for me.

<<Sometimes /nt/-->[n]:
- "center", in rapid speech
- "county", as in "xxx County Jail"
- "sent", when followed by a vowel
- "aunt", when followed by a vowel (I would always use [nt] in the sentence "My aunt ate it", but I might reduce /nt/-->[n] in a sentence like "My aunt is coming over")>>

Those usually have /nt/ --> [n] for me as well. I remember calling my aunts "auntie" (as in "Auntie Sue"--I never just said "Auntie" by itself) as ["{ni] as a little kid. Thus, my "auntie" and "Annie" are often homophonous in my speech. That's interesting you have a distinction between doing nt/-->[n] for "My aunt is coming over" but not for "My aunt ate it." For those would be:

[maI {n I:z "k_hVmiN "o_c:v@`]
[maI {n e4 It]

<<Never /nt/-->[n]:
- Most disyllabic lexical items: winter, cantor, banter, saunter, auntie>>

Hehe, "winter" with [nt] sounds stilted coming out of my mouth. It seems as formal to me as saying "autumn" instead of "fall." I almost always (99% of the time) say ["wIn@`], making it homophonous with "winner," of course. The less common words are more like "cantor," "banter," and "saunter" are much more likely to have [nt] than [n] for me.

<<- Generally I never have /ntl=/-->[nl=]; I would always use [nt] in: gentle, dental, fundamental, etc.>>

Very interesting. Those usually are [n5=] for me. A [t] in those words sounds very formal. They're usually as follows for me:

["dZEn5=]
["dEn5=]
[fVnd@"mEn5=]

<<Past tense/participial forms like "talented", "scented", "granted" generally don't have /nt/-->[n]>>

Another interesting one. I usually have /nt/-->[n] for those.

Obviously /nt/-->[n] is more prevalent in my dialect! I was very surprised at some of the words where you had /nt/ --> [nt].
Uriel   Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:32 pm GMT
I would have to say that duller and color rhyme perfectly for me. Ya'll must be getting weird in California, Kirky!

I can do talented, granted, and scented either way -- with the T or not.
Kirk   Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:35 pm GMT
<<I would have to say that duller and color rhyme perfectly for me. Ya'll must be getting weird in California, Kirky! >>

Hehe, it's a rare instance where you and I don't share a merger. Very interesting :)