An all-hard G?

Me   Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:33 pm GMT
C before E, I & Y is pronounced /s/. We have the letter K to show where C is hard in that position (K). When G is before E, I & Y it is pronounced /dZ/. But, we have no letter that represents a hard G all of the time. What letter could represent this?
Chis   Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:01 am GMT
The letter "g" followed by the [i] sound can sometimes be pronounced hard. For example the word "geezer" is pronounced with a hard "g". English doesn't really have rules with no exceptions.
Lazar   Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:11 am GMT
Sometimes an "h" has been added to words to show unambiguously that the "g" is hard, as in "gherkin" ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gherkin ).

Another example might be the Albanian dialect variously spelled "Geg" or "Gheg". Checking Wikipedia, I see that the original Albanian word is "Gegë", so I think that the "h" might have been added in English to show that the "g" is hard.
Guest   Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:27 am GMT
If the word is a Latinate, then the "soft G" for G and /s/ for C applies before E, I, Y. Otherwise a "hard G" and /k/ is pronounced for words, generally of Germanic origin.
Me   Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:20 pm GMT
"Sometimes an "h" has been added to words to show unambiguously that the "g" is hard, as in "gherkin""

I think U is usually inserted for G before front vowels: guide, guess, & guy. What if we put it after *all* hard G's before front vowels, such as guift, guet & guive?

"If the word is a Latinate, then the "soft G" for G and /s/ for C applies before E, I, Y. Otherwise a "hard G" and /k/ is pronounced for words, generally of Germanic origin."

Old English G palatalized before E & I also. But this is the Y sound as in year & yet (/j/). But it was not palatalized before Y, because it came from an older U. Maybe Y could be used as a "hard-marker"? Gyift, gyet, gyive? Plus, why did we get rid of yogh? Yes, it came to look exactly like Z, but it had some good uses.
Lazar   Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:40 pm GMT
<<I think U is usually inserted for G before front vowels: guide, guess, & guy.>>

Yes, that does occur in many English word. I think the "gh" digraph tends to be used for more recent loanwords.
Lazar   Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:42 pm GMT
Correction above: <<many English word>> should be <<many English words>>.
Kirk   Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:51 pm GMT
<<Old English G palatalized before E & I also. But this is the Y sound as in year & yet (/j/). But it was not palatalized before Y, because it came from an older U. Maybe Y could be used as a "hard-marker"? Gyift, gyet, gyive? Plus, why did we get rid of yogh? Yes, it came to look exactly like Z, but it had some good uses.>>

Yeah, back in Old English, [j] was actually an allophone of /g/ before front vowels like [E] and [I] but eventually thru other sound changes the [j] came to be phonemic and was respelled as orthographical <y> once this happened. Some words (thanks to etymonline.com):

Old English spelling: <gea>
Modern English spelling: <yea>

OE spelling: <gise> <gese> (dialect dependent)
ME spelling: <yes>

OE spelling: <geornan> <giernan> <giorna> (dialect-dependent)
ME spelling: <yearn>

-->Compare to Standard German, where this allophonic rule didn't apply. It has /g/ in ME's cousin word, Std. German <gern> [gE6n].

OE spelling: <geolu> <geolwe> (dialect dependent)
ME spelling: <yellow>

--> Again, compare to Standard German <gelb> [gelp].

OE spelling: <geldan> <gieldan> (dialect dependent)
ME spelling: <yield>

--> Standard German <gelten> ["gElt_h@n]
Guest   Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:48 am GMT
>>Old English G palatalized before E & I also. But this is the Y sound as in year & yet (/j/). But it was not palatalized before Y, because it came from an older U. Maybe Y could be used as a "hard-marker"? Gyift, gyet, gyive? Plus, why did we get rid of yogh? Yes, it came to look exactly like Z, but it had some good uses. <<

I'll take your word for it. As I native speaker of English, I have observed this simple pattern (which isn't hard to verify) where the "soft G" before E, I (maybe not Y?) applies to Latinates. Otherwise generally a "hard G" for those words derived from Germanic sources. e.g. gear, geese, target, forget, git, gild, gelding, giddy, girt, girth, girdle, girl. But there are myriad Latinates of the "ge" and "gi" pattern you wouldn't know where to beGIN.
Angulo   Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:18 am GMT
These guys are nerds. What a way to waste their time.
Gest   Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:41 am GMT
Or geeks - with the required soft G before the E, of course.