WHO'S RIGHT - DICTIONARY OR NATIVE SPEAKER

LEENA   Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:49 am GMT
The meaning of "SON OF A GUN" given in webster's dictionary is :

1. A person; a fellow: That son of a gun knows how to sell cars and sell them well.
2. A rascal; a scamp: That son of gun is always playing practical jokes.

THE DICTIONARY MAKES NO RELATION TO "SON OF A BITCH"

But some native speakers have actually used "Son of a gun" as a milder euphemism for "son of a bitch" in their speaking. URIEL on this forum said the two are related.

SHOULD WE TRUST THE DICTIONARY? OR SHOULD WE TAKE A PHRASE'S MEANING ACCORDING TO HOW IT WAS USED BY NATIVE SPEAKERS IN THEIR DAILY SPEAKING?

I'M CONFUSED....
L6095LN   Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:42 am GMT
Uriel was right.

"Son of a gun" is merely a benign euphemism for "son of a bitch."

I would wager too that, like many euphemisms, it has taken on a life of its own. That's to say, many of those who say "son of a gun" now use it as a mild ejaculation without any intent of associating it with "son of a bitch."

In this respect it's similar to "gosh darn (it)" which began life as a euphemism for "God damn it" but which has now become a gentle exclamation in its own right.
Ethoglow   Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:26 am GMT
I don't know about that, I was raised in Texas (yes home of the G.O.BY.N.), and I kid you not, those phrases are entirely different. It may seem easy to think of them as euphemisms, but in a state that is considered as redneck as you can get, they are seperate in their use. "gosh darn it" appears when a mild event occurs, "god damnit" occurs when a major event.

example:

Person 1. Gosh darnit!
Person 2. What happened?!
Person 1. I broke my fishing pole on that there bass!

Person 1. God damnit!!
Person 2. What happened?!
Person 1. That there son ova bitch done shot at me!!

Yes I know, extremely exaggerated examples. But, it is how I know how it is used in social context.
Thommo   Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:51 am GMT
The point is that, as a euphemism, it worked, and has now become a much milder, and more acceptable expression, just as "darn" has.

Interestingly, both are, or were pretty well US-only expressions, as is the oath "God damn it", which has earnt Americans yet another nickname in other parts of the world: "the goddams", which stems from the latter stages of World War 2, when many US servicemen trained in the UK and Australia, where "damn" was used by the locals, but without God's name actually being taken in vain.
Damian in Edinburgh   Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:21 am GMT
I don't like the term "son of a bitch".......it's one Americanism which is not used this side of the water, thankfully. How did it originate? How come the bad actions of a man is reflected on, or is the result of, the character of his mother?

If those American servicemen used it when they were over here during WW2 (history shows that they were here in the UK in mega huge numbers...they found their way to every corner of these islands) then it never caught on with the locals here. Gum chewing and the enticement of the younger female population did, but Son of a Bitch didn't!
Thommo   Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:15 am GMT
Didn't catch on here either, Damien, and there were quite a few here also (hundreds of thousands at least), nearly all in Queensland, because of the war in the Pacific - which is what finally got them into WW2 - which was going on at the same time as the one in Europe.

They didn't make themselves very popular here either, at least with the blokes, but took several shiploads of war-brides back across the Pacific, and left some lasting memories behind, including that of their cursing, which is why they're still sometimes called the goddams.
Guest   Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:45 am GMT
"Son of a bitch" (and its variations) is quite cliche and common to many languages. It probably came into English from some form of "old" French.

According to this source... http://www.takeourword.com/TOW195/page2.html

If you were wondering, son of a bitch (in the form bitch-son) first appears in the written record in 1330 in Of Arthur & of Merlin, but we don't find it again until Shakespeare's time (1605) in King Lear: "One that...art nothing but the composition of a Knave, Begger, Coward, Pandar, and the Sonne and Heire of a Mungrill Bitch."
Uriel   Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:07 pm GMT
When Lewis and Clarke reached the Pacific coast, they found the Indians there using "son-of-a-beech" already! Probably courtesy of contact with fur trappers or something.

Ethoglow is entirely right; now that we have all these euphemisms for real swear words, we have organized them into a hierarchy of cussing, from mild to harsh, so they do function differently in a semantic sense:

darn, damn, goddamn

son of a gun, (the rather tongue-in-cheek) son of a biscuit, son of a bitch

And if you really need to get the point across, there's the "big gun": motherfucker!
Jim C, York   Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:24 pm GMT
I live near an airbase which had a fair few Canadians on it during Word War 2, when they first arrived the local lads didn't take kindly to them taking our Yorkshire lasses etc. There were a fair few fights outside pubs in the begining. There was even one Canadian who was told in no uncertain terms to swim back to where he came from, so in show of strength more than anything he jumped into the Ouse, a very cold river with strong currents, he sadly drowned. Eventualy the bad feeling died down, and most locals have fond memories of the Canadian air men.
Guest   Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:59 am GMT
>>Yes, and it's wrong to call it an Americanism <<

figlio di putana, fils de pute, hijo de puta, filho da puta...it's not unique to English anyway.
Damian in Edinburgh   Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:15 am GMT
It may be technically wrong to call it an Americanism in that case, but nevertheless it's a dreich term which is associated with America and that's one reason it's not used over here. As for the "motherfucker" term, och..........no way!...another one you can keep "over there".
Uriel   Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:10 pm GMT
Well, it's one of our favorites. And it also is not only American English -- you can say the exact same thing in Spanish.
Boy   Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:54 pm GMT
I always wonder why swearing words involve a word of "mother" or "bitch" why not "father". The only reason I can think of is that children have a natural love for their mothers so any swearing which involve the word "mother" will boil their blood, naturally. Anyways, the word "motherfucker" is such an offensive word. I dont know how people could come with it. Nobody can imagine to fuck their mothers even in their dreams never mind in real life. So what is the purpose of such a word in the language? People can use mild expressions if they want to vent their anger.
Guest   Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:01 pm GMT
>>Nobody can imagine to fuck their mothers even in their dreams never mind in real life.<<

If only one could understand Sigmund Freud's obsession with that.
Jim C, Eofforwic   Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:47 pm GMT
Freud was a complete nut case, he tried to apply his own sick fantacies on the rest of human kind. Druged up loser! You can tell I'm a fan of Jung can't you?