English words drifting in meaning.

Guest   Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:05 am GMT
Does anyone else find it interesting how a lot of native English words have drifted away from their cognates in the other Germanic languages in terms of meaning? There seems to be loads of words which illustrate this but the connection between them isn't always obvious to begin with.
Words such as 'Like' in english which I later found out to be related to the German word 'gleich' meaning 'same' and the verb 'may' being related to the German verb 'Mogen'. I realised when I noticed how similar 'I may' and 'Ich mag' looked, although both mean different things. There are loads of examples but I won't go into all that. I was just wondering if anyone knows if this has happened with the other Germanic languages? or have they all kept a similar meaning mostly with their native vocabularies? And if this drift in meaning is unique to English, could it be because of English being isolated from the other Germanic languages?
Razalgool   Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:29 am GMT
Sorry, I forgot to put my name in.
Guest   Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:03 am GMT
I don't know if this is right. But going thought a German Book (I don't know a single word of German) I simply just guessed them.

Mensen = mankind (people)
Kinder = Child (Kid)
Angeln = Angelling (Fishing)
Halten = halt (stop)
Fleisch = Flesh (meat) as at a butcher
Kaffeemaschine = Coffee Machine (Coffee maker)
Kassettenrecorder = cassette recorder (tape recorder)
ETC ETC


Even replacing the English 'y' for the German 'j' (basically the same sound) it gave it a more 'Germanized' look on some words.
Ja = Jes (Yes)


Replacing the English 'f' for the German 'v' (basically the same sound)
vader = vather (father)
volk = volk (folk)
vier = vour (four)
Razalgool   Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:11 am GMT
<<I don't know if this is right. But going thought a German Book (I don't know a single word of German) I simply just guessed them.

Mensen = mankind (people)
Kinder = Child (Kid)
Angeln = Angelling (Fishing)
Halten = halt (stop)
Fleisch = Flesh (meat) as at a butcher
Kaffeemaschine = Coffee Machine (Coffee maker)
Kassettenrecorder = cassette recorder (tape recorder)
ETC ETC >>

Yeah there is a lot of similarity with English words. But I think 'Kinder' comes from the same root as the English word 'Kin' meaning relative and 'Halten' from the same root as English 'Hold'. As you can see, although the meanings may not correspond exactly, you can see the connections between the words.
Adam   Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:20 am GMT
That's where the words "Norfolk" and "Suffolk" come from.

"Norfolk" means "North People" and "Suffolk" means "South People."
Lazar   Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:17 pm GMT
We had an interesting thread on English-German semantic drift over on Langcafe: http://www.langcafe.net/viewtopic.php?t=649
Kirk   Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:11 am GMT
<<Does anyone else find it interesting how a lot of native English words have drifted away from their cognates in the other Germanic languages in terms of meaning? There seems to be loads of words which illustrate this but the connection between them isn't always obvious to begin with.
Words such as 'Like' in english which I later found out to be related to the German word 'gleich' meaning 'same' and the verb 'may' being related to the German verb 'Mogen'. I realised when I noticed how similar 'I may' and 'Ich mag' looked, although both mean different things. There are loads of examples but I won't go into all that. I was just wondering if anyone knows if this has happened with the other Germanic languages? or have they all kept a similar meaning mostly with their native vocabularies? And if this drift in meaning is unique to English, could it be because of English being isolated from the other Germanic languages?>>

It is interesting how English words have experienced semantic drift but in a not insignificant amount of cases it actually is the most conservative of words going back to Proto Germanic, but mainlaind Germanic languages have changed since. We talked about this in the thread Lazar linked above from Langcafe, but here's one example at least of one where English was conservative and German innovative semantically--the word "head." German has etymologically related "Haupt" but it is no longer commonly used to refer to the part of the body but more abstract meanings. German replaced it with "Kopf," which originally meant "cup."
Razalgool   Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:11 pm GMT
<<It is interesting how English words have experienced semantic drift but in a not insignificant amount of cases it actually is the most conservative of words going back to Proto Germanic, but mainlaind Germanic languages have changed since. We talked about this in the thread Lazar linked above from Langcafe, but here's one example at least of one where English was conservative and German innovative semantically--the word "head." German has etymologically related "Haupt" but it is no longer commonly used to refer to the part of the body but more abstract meanings. German replaced it with "Kopf," which originally meant "cup." >>

Yeah, it is interesting you should say that. Semantic drift has also happended not just with native words but also between early latin borrowings in the Germanic languages. I can see it also in words like: Mauer - Mural, Pferd - Palfrey, Kurz - Curt, Körper - Corpse, Schreiben - Shrive.

I do find it fascinating how although English has been more subject to outside influence than the other Germanic languages, it has in some ways remained more conservative. Like how English has retained the word 'Short' where most other Germanic languages have adopted the Latin word and also retaining sounds lost in the other Germanic languages like the 'th' sound (not including Icelandic).
Kirk   Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:11 pm GMT
<<Yeah, it is interesting you should say that. Semantic drift has also happended not just with native words but also between early latin borrowings in the Germanic languages. I can see it also in words like: Mauer - Mural, Pferd - Palfrey, Kurz - Curt, Körper - Corpse, Schreiben - Shrive.>>

Yeah, great examples. Thanks for mentioning Palfrey--I hadn't realized its connection with Palfrey before (not that Palfrey is a terribly common word anyway). In that instance English uses an older word, "horse," abeit with a couple millennia of sound change. German still has etymologically related "Roß" but I think it just means "steed" or something and is not the common word for "horse." In the case of "body" English uses a Germanic word which has shifted in meaning to the modern form but German prefers the (comparatively) newer Latin form for the general meaning, while English "corpse" has a narrower semantic range. English also continues to use a native Germanic word for "write," while many modern Germanic languages use the word from Latin--Swedish "skriva" German "schreiben" Dutch "schrijven" etc.

<<I do find it fascinating how although English has been more subject to outside influence than the other Germanic languages, it has in some ways remained more conservative. Like how English has retained the word 'Short' where most other Germanic languages have adopted the Latin word and also retaining sounds lost in the other Germanic languages like the 'th' sound (not including Icelandic).>>

Yeah "short" is another example of English conserving older Germanic forms. The 'th' thing is interesting because Proto Germanic clearly had it and it survived into the medieval forms of many Germanic languages but has since shifted to other sounds (especially /d/ and /t/) in most languages since. Only Icelandic, English, Scots, and a few Scandinavian dialects preserve the historical Germanic interdental fricatives (Danish has some but they're not related to the historical ones from Proto Germanic).
Travis   Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:01 pm GMT
>>Yeah "short" is another example of English conserving older Germanic forms. The 'th' thing is interesting because Proto Germanic clearly had it and it survived into the medieval forms of many Germanic languages but has since shifted to other sounds (especially /d/ and /t/) in most languages since. Only Icelandic, English, Scots, and a few Scandinavian dialects preserve the historical Germanic interdental fricatives (Danish has some but they're not related to the historical ones from Proto Germanic).<<

Of course, then, English dialects have not perfectly preserved such, such as the replacement thereof with dental stops in Hiberno-English dialects, with labiodentals in Cockney, with alveolar stops and labiodentals in AAVE, with dental affricates, dental stops, and alveolar stops word-initially here in southeastern Wisconsin, and so on.
Razalgool   Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:10 pm GMT
<<Yeah, great examples. Thanks for mentioning Palfrey--I hadn't realized its connection with Palfrey before (not that Palfrey is a terribly common word anyway). In that instance English uses an older word, "horse," abeit with a couple millennia of sound change. German still has etymologically related "Roß" but I think it just means "steed" or something and is not the common word for "horse." In the case of "body" English uses a Germanic word which has shifted in meaning to the modern form but German prefers the (comparatively) newer Latin form for the general meaning, while English "corpse" has a narrower semantic range. English also continues to use a native Germanic word for "write," while many modern Germanic languages use the word from Latin--Swedish "skriva" German "schreiben" Dutch "schrijven" etc. >>

If you dig deep enough there are tonnes of examples. Similar things happen with English. Such as an older word for place or position is "Stead" but it is not used as much as the aforementioned words and is mainly present in words such as "homestead" or "bedstead". It is also cognate with the German word "Stadt" meaning 'town'. Or "Fare" cognate with German "Fahren" which means payment for travel rather than the actual travelling itself. There are other early Latin borrowings in German which I think may be cognate with English words but I am not 100% certain. Maybe you can help shed some light on these. I am guessing that the German word for "clean" = "Sauber" may be cognate with English "Sober" but I have nothing concrete. I also have similar problems with "Fehler" = "Failure" and "Kämpfen" = "Camp". Any thoughts?
Kirk   Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:52 pm GMT
<<If you dig deep enough there are tonnes of examples. Similar things happen with English. Such as an older word for place or position is "Stead" but it is not used as much as the aforementioned words and is mainly present in words such as "homestead" or "bedstead". It is also cognate with the German word "Stadt" meaning 'town'. >>

Don't forget "instead" :) Anyway, yes, "stead" is more restricted in meaning, tho you'll still hear it in some phrases such as "in my stead."

<<Or "Fare" cognate with German "Fahren" which means payment for travel rather than the actual travelling itself.>>

Yeah--except "fare" can still retain the sense of "going/journey/travel" in forms such as "seafaring" or "wayfarer."

<<There are other early Latin borrowings in German which I think may be cognate with English words but I am not 100% certain. Maybe you can help shed some light on these. I am guessing that the German word for "clean" = "Sauber" may be cognate with English "Sober" but I have nothing concrete.>>

I'm not sure on that one. I think it may be a coincidence. Checks to etymonline and oed.com indicated no connection to "sauber." I wonder what its history is. I do know that English "clean" and German "klein" (little) are etymologically related, however.

<< I also have similar problems with "Fehler" = "Failure">>

English "fail(ure)" came from Old French "faillir" so that one's a chance resemblance.

<<and "Kämpfen" = "Camp". Any thoughts?>>

Yeah, those both came as early Latin loans meaning "open field" (often had a military sense). The German sense largely ditched the geographical sense and kept the military/fighting one while the English one mostly lost the military/fighting sense (not entirely lost, but if you say "camp" most people don't typically think of the military).
Travis   Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:12 am GMT
>>Yeah--except "fare" can still retain the sense of "going/journey/travel" in forms such as "seafaring" or "wayfarer."<<

And in particular in its usage in the phrase "fare well", often written as the one word "farewell".

>>Yeah, those both came as early Latin loans meaning "open field" (often had a military sense). The German sense largely ditched the geographical sense and kept the military/fighting one while the English one mostly lost the military/fighting sense (not entirely lost, but if you say "camp" most people don't typically think of the military).<<

Of course, at the same time, one in Late Modern English can use the phrase "(out) on an/the open field" itself in a military sense to refer to set piece-style combat as opposed to other types of warfare.
campo cruz   Mon May 22, 2006 7:07 pm GMT
1 camp- from latin, generalized meaning countryside, uses of military borrow from this

2 if fare origionally meant the fee paid for travelling explain - farewell

3 ferry fayre fair fare and far ! fare being the verbal form, fair coming from the latin, a market or exhibit in which trading over distances was the norm (feira) the word also has connections meaning day, one could deduce that distance was easier to judge in respect to time in days gone by.

4 Above - sober comes from latin

5 write - english retains the latin escrever, scribe, scribble, describe
there are far more variations of this

6 it was also stated above about the fricatives - dont much agree
th sh wh ch etc
the h signifies a stop, in old scots especially. latin form y

like the ch pronounciation in scots :- k

church is not the ch but k, kirk in norwegian and scots comes from the description word circle, origionally kirkle, a small kirkular object.
the use of the word church is a remnant of the pagan stone circles.
or moreover the home of religion (big clock in latin by default)

in these cases was an attempt by the scholars to improve pronounciation in lands where pronounciation varied. the modern use of the english language has been highly "fiddled" by certain classes through time. you just have to go to the north of uk to hear the following examples ;-

the - thou thon thonder you yous yon yonder etc
these are standard roman/latinised forms:- de tu vou and the origional pronounciation should not have varied much from the t and v sounds found in other latin languages

what where why when in north scot is equal to the more nordic forms with :- fit far fitwy (ponounced fit w eye) and fan.
Caz   Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:11 pm GMT
So can anyone help with the pronunciation of "Gaschoni"? Or even the probable correct spelling of the name..Our family moved to England in the late 19th century and this is the English interpretation.
Many thanks