Why is French pronounciation so different from other Romance

Latin-Anglo-American   Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:00 pm GMT
... languages like Spanish and Italian?

I'm interested in learning the historical reason for the vastly different pronounciation of French vs. Spanish and Italian, which are pronounced almost the same. Where did the nasal aspect of French come from, and all the other differences? Is it simply Gallic-inflected Latin which made such a difference, or are there other factors? Did the Franks have an effect on modern French pronounciation? Anyone out there with an impressive linguistic background that can give me an answer?
Latin-Anglo-American   Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:33 pm GMT
So as far as you know Brennus, the Frank's had absolutely no effect on French phonology? The Franks added 400 words to Gallo-Latin, and I always thought they impacted modern French pronounciation as well, being that they had Germanic accents. There could be a Frankish substratum as well, don't you agree?
Latin-Anglo-American   Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:36 pm GMT
Could you go into more detail about Mario Pei's explanation for me? I don't have access to his literary works.
Latin-Anglo-American   Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:57 pm GMT
So why don't other Celtic languages like Welsh, or Irish, or Scottish Gaelic have that nasal sound? Was this something unique to continental Celts?
greg   Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:33 am GMT
Latin-Anglo-American : « So why don't other Celtic languages like Welsh, or Irish, or Scottish Gaelic have that nasal sound? Was this something unique to continental Celts? »

Nos cousins¹ lusitaniens ont des voyelles nasales aussi.

¹ Au sens linguistique.
Gringo   Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:27 pm GMT
««This has also been attributed to a pre-Roman substratum; most likely Celtic. The Halstatt Celts occupied a large part of the Iberian peninsula in the 7th century B.C. »»

I find several theories one of them, by Bosh Gimpera, says that
the first wave of Celts in Iberia happened around 900 BC and he linked it with the Urnfield Culture from southern Germany.

The second wave were groups of Hallstatt peoples from the Lower and Middle Rhine,that arrived between 650 and 570 BC via the western passes of the Pyrenees. He says the Belgae arrived in the Peninsula around 570 BC.


««Of course, the Portuguese (Lusitanians) have always been a maritime (seafaring) people and even in Roman times they had contacts with the Gallic cities of Nantes and Bordella (Bordeaux) which their landlubbing Spanish neighbors did not have.»»

The presence of Gauls in the northeast of “Spain” seems to have been very intense. It is thought that there were several infiltrations of groups of Gauls that came from the north of the Pyrenees.

As early as 214 and 212 BC Livius' says that Moenicoeptus and Vismarus,two reguli Gallorum allied with the Carthaginians (Spain), died in combat.

In the year 49 BC Caesar's, refers the arrival at his camp (Spain) of Gallic cavalrymen and Ruthenian archers with more than 6,000 men together with their servants, women and children. (Bell. ciu. 1, 51).
(Ruthenia was located in Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Slovakia, Poland area)

It is not as simple as it seems. Spain had, like Portugal, much Celtic influence and had borders with Galia.
Latin-Anglo-American   Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:02 pm GMT
Could someone please provide a link where I could hear Irish, and Portuguese being spoken?

So we know for sure, that most likely, the nasal aspect of French arose from the Gallic accent?
radio   Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:49 pm GMT
Latin-Anglo-American   Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:06 am GMT
The link below is a series of audio clips of Celtic languages being spoken.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/celts/pages/languages.shtml
Guest   Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:09 am GMT
Portuguese, Romanian, occitan and Catalan doesn't sound either to Italian and spanish. saying that all romance languages sounds the same except french is not true.
greg   Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:42 pm GMT
Absolument. Il faudrait même ajouter le lombard, le piedmontais, le ligure, le wallon, le picard, le gallo, le poitevin, le franco-provençal, le gascon etc.
pronounciation   Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:23 pm GMT
//Why is French pronounciation so different from other Romance... languages like Spanish and Italian?//


Although many other languages other than Latin were spoken in Spain, Spanish language kept a simple phonology and French a rich one. Why Spanish kept a simple phonology? For instance, if we look at the contact languages, and only to the vowels sounds of those contact languages, we see that most had a simple vowel system.


Iberian
Iberian has five vowels, the same as in Castilian Spanish or Basque, /a/ /e/ /i/ /o/ /u/, the front vowels (a, e, i) appearing more frequently than the back vowels. Although there are indications of a nasal vowel ([ḿ]), this is thought to be an allophone.
More in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language

Basque
The vowel system is the same as Spanish for most speakers. It consists of five pure vowels, /i e a o u/. Speakers of the Souletin dialect also have a sixth, front rounded vowel (represented in writing by ü but pronounced /ø/, much like a German ö), as well as a set of contrasting nasalized vowels.
More in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language

Arabic:
Arabic has three vowels, with their long forms, plus two diphthongs: a [ɛ̈] (open e as in English bed, but centralised), i [ɪ], u [ʊ]; ā [æː], ī [iː], ū [uː]; ai (ay) [ɛ̈ɪ], au (aw) [ɛ̈ʊ]. Allophonically, after velarized consonants (see following), the vowel a is pronounced [ɑ], ā as [ɑː] (thus also after r), ai as [ɑɪ] and au as [ɑʊ].
More in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language


Gothic:
More in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language
Latin-Anglo-American   Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:23 pm GMT
Listen to the audio clips from the link i posted in one my earlier posts. Tell me if those Celtic languages sound nasal.
Guest   Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:31 pm GMT
It is modern celtic. You do not know how they sounded in the past.
greg   Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:12 pm GMT
french is different because this language was used by slaves when Roman and Greece owned them..